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 Post subject: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:12 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:18 pm
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After instaling new patch I can spawn only 3 hydras :(
Can this be fixed or I'd better delete char ?


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 Post subject: Re: Hell Unleashed 1.3a Multi-player Edition (Updated & Fixe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:30 am 
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hydras were reduced to 9 sec cast delay, but was increased in damage from its synergies. also the hydrabolts got an increase in speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell Unleashed 1.3a Multi-player Edition (Updated & Fixe
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:59 am 

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Hflame wrote:
hydras were reduced to 9 sec cast delay, but was increased in damage from its synergies. also the hydrabolts got an increase in speed.


yea i noticed :D. can hydra time be increased at all, the first 1 second of casting they sit idle and do nothing. Increase time to 10 seconds plz? to compensate for lazy Hydra!


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 Post subject: Re: Hell Unleashed 1.3a Multi-player Edition (Updated & Fixe
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:26 am 
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even with the changes on hydra speed/dmg, they should atleast have remained on 12 seconds -_- such a lame...


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 Post subject: Re: Hell Unleashed 1.3a Multi-player Edition (Updated & Fixe
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:52 am 
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9 seconds delay:
2 hydras at a time since the cast delay on them is 1.5 seconds; when the 3rd comes by, takes 1.5 seconds to start shooting.

this makes us have half the bolts we had with 12 seconds ( around 3.5 hydras at a time), the speed of the bolt is nice, but its not that singnificant since they shoot twice before die... so we have:
2 hydras shooting around 12-15 bolts with slightly increased bolt speed and 300%+ synergy dmg

Before we had: 35-40 bolts with less dmg but the quantity of bolts quite compensate...

my point is... hydra its maybe a bit better now... but the change its almost nothing. if you were going to increase dmg and FIX speed (note that the speed is not a buff, is a fix) you shouldve left the duration in 12.

so...
it now compares to meteor??.... NO
it now compares to nova??... NO
... to any other sorc build?? NO WAY

And if you compare the entire build you need to see that the secondary skill, firebolt, its also weaker than the meteorsorc's firebolt, since it has 1 less synergy. Also its a singletarget skill and meteor sorc has fireball. And, the other skill of the build, enchant, doesnt even makes the build near effective as the others... enchanting merc is all you can do with it... and its not a big deal... even without enchanting merc, he will do almost everything for you, since with this build you depend on him/her on a 75%


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 Post subject: Re: Hell Unleashed 1.3a Multi-player Edition (Updated & Fixe
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:57 am 
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Yes, I don't like the 9 sec hydra either. It just makes no sense that if we want to buff Hydra, why reduce its duration (without reducing the cooldown).


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 Post subject: Re: Hell Unleashed 1.3a Multi-player Edition (Updated & Fixe
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:02 am 
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i dont like the reduction either but the point was to make it reach max dps faster. increasing the speed and doubling the synergies from 5% to 10% is a big buff. so reducing the amount of hydras by 1, compensated the large increase in damage, while also making it reach its max dps faster.


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 Post subject: Re: Hell Unleashed 1.3a Multi-player Edition (Updated & Fixe
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:15 am 
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But does it matter if you can't stack them? The reduction of duration was a reduction of damage potential. The boltspeed and the synergy increase is great and should be kept, in my opinion, but the duration is too short.
Best-case scenario:
You are fighting a stationary boss (he doesn't teleport/run around). You spam hydras around him and they all hit. If the duration was 24 again, you could stack a lot more hydras and a lot more bolts would hit - more damage (not to say that you could run around the boss to dodge missiles while still damaging him).
A worse scenario:
You are killing trash or bosses that move a lot (fallens, mithia). Long hydras can hit a lot more times in their lifespan than short hydras. Thus, their damage potential is higher.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:38 pm 
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split this from the main thread as it seemed a good discussion to be seperate

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:14 pm 
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24 secs is too long. remember that monsters get these spells as well, with a lower duration, fewer bolts means few counters. each bolt doing (guessing) 2 or 3 bolts previously. having higher damage per bolt for me is better than having a longer duration of hydra.
when i was doing mithra(meph sub boss, dont remember name right) there were so many hydras out, i was in block lock. now it can be do-able because there are fewer, but they just hit a bit harder.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:39 pm 
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The increase bolt speed doesnt help reach max dps people... they still cast at the same speed, damn slow, 9 seconds duration considering the low fcr, its more like 2 hydras at a time shooting only twice.

This increased bolt speed just makes the hydra miss less, when you reduce the duration you also reduce the quantity of bolts they shoot... wich means you are reducing the amount of dmg they deal; and then what we have? that 5% buff on each synergy (300% total) is not that huge buff since they now shoot the half they used to shoot.

I totally agree that 24 seconds its a lot... but thats why i didnt suggested dmg buff. The quantity was going to make the dmg buff, and also, it was going to be more like the original hydra from Diablo1.

The increased bolt speed was a FIX and the build needed it... this doesnt really makes it stronger, just nearer to the way its intended to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:20 pm 

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Hydra sorcs are already one of the most under played sorc builds or build at all PERIOD. The buff was sufficient but reducing duration was not a good idea. It's like a buff/nerf similar to vengeance.. you fix the problem but willingly create a new one as if.. I understand the point is to BALANCE. That's the problem when you buff/nerf though.. It's MUCH harder to balance. It's EASIER to start with a BUFF and then adjust with a nerf need be.

Hydras needed a buff.. buff was great.. reduction in duration ruined the buff. Fix reduction, simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:17 pm 
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Lee wrote:
Hydra sorcs are already one of the most under played sorc builds or build at all PERIOD. The buff was sufficient but reducing duration was not a good idea. It's like a buff/nerf similar to vengeance.. you fix the problem but willingly create a new one as if.. I understand the point is to BALANCE. That's the problem when you buff/nerf though.. It's MUCH harder to balance. It's EASIER to start with a BUFF and then adjust with a nerf need be.

Hydras needed a buff.. buff was great.. reduction in duration ruined the buff. Fix reduction, simple.


This is extactly what i think too... some of the "buffs" are mostly FIXES for some builds... but then they come and ruin that fix with a nerf... its kind of dumb.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:47 pm 
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first the duration was increased in order to double fully stacked damage. This caused alot of lag and fps drops and double the counters when fully stacked (not good).
This 100% buff was accepted as a high enough damage boost.

The synergys were then doubled, and the missile speed was increased so more of the bolts hit moving targets. This had the same effect as doubling duration on hydras with the added bonus of it causing less counters and taking half as long to reach maximum dps potential.
The second one was more tidy and was putting out the dame dps as the first one so thats what was added.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:56 pm 
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the increased bolt speed doesnt change the cast speed of hydra... they do not deal more dps with it, they just miss less.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Wolfs wrote:
the increased bolt speed doesnt change the cast speed of hydra... they do not deal more dps with it, they just miss less.


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The synergys were then doubled, and the missile speed was increased so more of the bolts hit moving targets. This had the same effect as doubling duration on hydras with the added bonus of it causing less counters and taking half as long to reach maximum dps potential.
The second one was more tidy and was putting out the dame dps as the first one so thats what was added.


doubling the synergys is a 100% damage boost. so is doublig the duration of them. The only diff is, they take less time to stack and they cause half as many counters + less screen mess.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:05 pm 
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duobling the synergy is a 100% buff IF the duration stays the same... reducing the duration to 9 also reduce the quantity of bolts per hydra and lose one entire hydra too... so this makes that 100% buff be more like... 50%? not sure about the maths.

its something like:
4 hydras chooting 120 bolts per minute with 10k per bolt (before)
3 hydras shooting 60 bolts per minute with 20k per bolt (now)


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:16 pm 
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so whats wrong with a 50% damage buff? you cant expect the bolts to do the same amount of damage as the other direct skills as you can just run around a bit while the hydras do its work. with enchanting the party, you are contributing a lot of damage, it just doesnt show up as you hitting the monsters directly.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:17 pm 
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yeh my bad. a 100% buff to damage and a 25% reduction in missiles.

Remember it took you twice the time to reach max dps (by that time you are causing 30 counters a sec?)

it now takes half time to reach max dps and you get half the counters?

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Hflame wrote:
so whats wrong with a 50% damage buff? you cant expect the bolts to do the same amount of damage as the other direct skills as you can just run around a bit while the hydras do its work. with enchanting the party, you are contributing a lot of damage, it just doesnt show up as you hitting the monsters directly.


please quote the parrragraph when i said that its something wrong with it....

I dont say the build is not better now... but the change, even when it fix the build in some high percent, could have been better. And the change that WE ask for is pretty simple, return the duration to 12, its easier when playing with smaller party and solo. in full party the dmg just doesnt seems to be there.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:27 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
yeh my bad. a 100% buff to damage and a 25% reduction in missiles.

Remember it took you twice the time to reach max dps (by that time you are causing 30 counters a sec?)

it now takes half time to reach max dps and you get half the counters?


True.

with duration at 12, it would take 9 seconds to reach actual dps... and 4 seconds more to reach that "25%" you thougth it was dealing.

also, the longest the hydra stays active, the more dmg deal for EACH head, also helps the tactic part of the build, gathering mobs or running in circles for bosses


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:19 pm 
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I think with the combination of double synergys and more missiles actually hitting enemys while they are moving, its quite a buff already. I could argue that the slower missiles made the build more tactical since you had to keep them near the enemy to guarantee every hit.

TBH, I dont really get what the deal is, you get a massive enchant to buff the entire party + summons, you get much stronger hydras + improved missile speed AND you get firebolt yourself, that can hit 40k easily missing 1 full synergy. Plus its easy to pierce broken immunes into negative resists. What more do you want?

Just because a skill is level 36 req don't mean it has to have the highest damage for the build.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:01 pm 
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Im tired of arguing actually... been like 2 years with hydra thing, but even when im gratefull that you guys managed to fix the build to make it playable, the changes dont even excite me anymore... and guess they wont excite no1 else -_-

increase bolt speed = amazing fix!!
100% damage buff = cool buff
reduce duration to 9 = lame nerf
*this is how i feel it

my sorc is lvl 58 in normal, in full party she doesnt exist, its just a enchantress; when duo or trio its fun even when i just manage deal around 25% of total dps before the party mop everything.
Playing solo is the best part of the build, but soloing bosses is hard since i can only have 2.5 hydras at a time and they miss a lot if the boss runs behind... having less hydras make it hard to strategically move the mobs/bosses to get them hit.
always manage to kill them with the time, due the bolt fix and the dmg buff.

one last thing... the counter thing is not a problem, you are not obligated to summon all the 4 hydras, you control how many you want depending the party -_-

many thanks for the attention to my suggestions, i appreciatte.
/thread (for me, tired of arguing)


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Quote:
always manage to kill them with the time, due the bolt fix and the dmg buff.

so whats the problem? You are pissed because in a full team you dont steam roll everything yourself? wtf man. You are still in normal using norm gear. maybe wait until you have a chance to use the new high end gear etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:21 am 
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-_-' not pissed, learn to read.

and, with time, you can kill almost anything with normal attack and a decrep wand + with a pot bomb lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:24 am 
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Wolfs wrote:
-_-' not pissed, learn to read.

and, with time, you can kill almost anything with normal attack and a decrep wand + with a pot bomb lol.


learn to play and i`ll learn to read, k?

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:47 am 
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lol... you are pissed, how funny.

Even more funny saying me to learn to play... i think i learned enough how to play in the last 6.5 years, and know better than you.

You are NOW supposed to help the community, to give people attention, at least have some manners and patience and dont be such an asshole, learn some people skills.

you come from the community also, you are supposed to be hear us and represent us... not just your small "elite" friend circle like it has been done MOSTLY. Yes i accept you know a lot of many things on D2, but you are not god, get back to earth. I still appreciatte your attention to my suggs even when your treatment became stupid at the end. too bad... for you.

and again, LEARN TO READ idiot, i know my english isnt good since i learned it alone and my main language is spanish, but i never said on my posts the changes done were bad, were useless, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:09 am 
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Wow, you can't even tell when I'm trying to have a little fun with you? I figured you would take it as it was supposed to be taken (as a joke). You don't have to take everything seriously. You should also know by now that all your points have been noted and taken seriously. Just because I personally don't share your view, don't mean I disregard your points. The point is though, I doubt duff will want yet another update for something so small. Closer to the time of an update the points can be raised again. But not from playing the build through the very beginning of the game. Our team has been putting out terrible DPS through hell but we still made progress.

The point is not that hydra is too weak, it's that other builds are too strong IMO.

The thing is though, nobody complains about an OP build, instead they complain that the actually balanced chars that require a team to progress are underpowered beside these other builds.

So far the only points about OP builds have been made by myself and drrod (bone nec and blizz).

Again, don't take my shit so seriously, I thought you would know that by now :P

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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:25 am 
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all fine, i dont use to have conflicts with people. I also know that there shouldnt be more patchs for now, so np, just dont wanna discuss more on hydra and dont like when the other gets aggressive with me with no apparental reason. As for bone nec, scale the syn percent per 4 or 5 levels, you wont get overpower not until the end of A2 and not until the end of a3 again or maybe start of a4 since you have to invest on a summon or curses and you make the syn pack further on each pt invested not in tree.

example: when you get bonespear, not until lvl5 bonespear (hardpoint) you will have a syn for teeth, but if you invested on CE, summon and curse, this syn gets to you not until lvl 30-33, and same will happen to bone spirit.

just a thought tho, shouldnt have suggested this here tho; it should be like teeth getting 250% bonus from lvl5 bonespear/spirit (250% per 5 harpoints), and the other two 125% per 5 harpoints.

endgame dmg will be the same, but fresh game wont be such a cannon.


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 Post subject: Re: Discussion of hydra duration reduction
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:33 am 
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as far as bone necro goes. I ran some numbers last night. With perf gear and all unique charms equipped:

level 58 spirit 5008 damage unsynergised (40*25%) Final damage = 55088
level 68 spear 3399 damage unsynergised (40*25%) Final damage = 37389
level 60 teeth 781 damage unsynergised (40*50%) Finel damage = 16401

Pierce:
39 Bone Shade + 2 Celestial Spheres
32 perf faceted templars
24 4 perf mag facets in +3 pnb circlet
20 2 wisp projectors
10 Zaka Amulet
23 5 perf mag facets in darkforge shield.

148% total magic pierce

kinda daunting as with just 60% pierce and 20k spear you destroy bosses and with 9k teeth and the same pierce, 2 volleys kill most trash mobs. :x

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