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 Post subject: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:31 am 
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Alright, so I was 100% behind this patch in the beginning. I'll admit that. I wanted it, and I wanted the changes. But after looking through the patch notes and playing through the mod so far, it's becoming pretty clear.
This is now absolutely a caster mod, no doubts about it. I was honestly okay with the crushing blow nerf, it was warranted. Teams were built around one melee character to do the damage, and CB amplified that by far.
But... You nerfed deadly strike, damage reduction, and resists to complete shit. There is 100% no incentive to play a melee outside of just a tank. And don't get me started about a melee Druid, who gets no passive critical strike or passive damage reduction like the other classes (which with item changes, is completely necessary now).

Don't get me wrong, the CB nerf and possibly the Amplify Damage nerf were warranted, but there is absolutely no reason to nerf melee into the ground with the deadly strike (lol @ no DS on lvl 90 weapons) and the damage reduction buff. It was completely and utterly unneeded. Melee were only strong because of CB & Amp. There is absolutely no reason to make them not viable like this.

The fact you did little to stop Hammerdins & Poison characters from dominating means melee is the only one nerfed to shit. That shows extremely little is balanced. You took out one of the three that dominates boss fights. (I've looked that rw's and gear, Hammerdins are still amazing and so are poison builds)

There is absolutely no deadly strike and extremely little DR on end-game weapons and armor. This was NOT discussed in the development forums and came as a surprise to people who have been following said forums. I would really like some sort of explanation for these ridiculous nerfs that changed this mod into a complete caster mod with melee doing absolutely nothing but standing in front of a boss.


EDIT: I was really hoping this patch would bring some underpowered builds to decent and bring the overpowered builds to the same level as other builds, it has not. If anything, this patch just made casters mandatory to have you in your party. That's all. It did nothing about Hammerdins or Poison dmg dominating the boss killing field. All it did was nerf melee into complete shit.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:21 am 
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There are a lot of changes in the patch, so a lot of changes in strategy are needed. I'd agree that melee and tanks were affected more than some other builds, but I think it's neat to see people already overcoming the obstacles they've faced.

When you get the time, consider posting in strategy and tactics forum describing what boss you were having trouble with, and what the party makeup was attempting that boss. If no one can think of a solution, then it's likely that changes will be scheduled for the future (possibly near future). Until then, I know lots of people unjoy solving the new problems faced in the patch, so let them know what you're up against.

In general though casters get an advantage at every reset since their gear isn't as critical until Hell difficulty (when enemy resistances and HP are very high, so casters can no longer rely on a strong offence to overcome their weak defence). A caster can gain a level and improve themselves a bit, while a melee generally needs to get a new peice of gear for the same improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:48 am 
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Last edited by Steel on Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:47 pm 
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Sucks

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:20 pm 
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duno, i see relays barb doing pretty well for us atm. upped patriarch swords, charge up with frenzy and 2 hander on switch to ww after charging up.

He was struggling for damage in a4 and early a5 but it got alot better around the mid 50s

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:14 pm 
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shouldnt that be a negative that the self buff from frenzy can be used while wielding a 2h? why isnt the buff applied like conc or smite or zerk? that would seem like it would be used like it was intended and not used as 'free %dr' since that was supposed to b nerfd

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:26 pm 
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its not dr its lifesteal and its always worked like that. Isn't it more fun to charge up then ww abit etc? better than holding right click like a mindless fool.

He is starting to struggle in a3, thats due more to no wepons dropping since act 5 norm though

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:18 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Barb
Increased stamina reduced to 4% per level.
Frenzy now gives 1%dr per hard point and is included in the self buff portion of the skill. Duration increased to 20 secs
Masterys now start at 12% critical strike at level 1 and cap at 50% at 20 hard points in the skill.
Grim Ward now summons a single blade with an aura that reduces enemys def by 25% (12 yard radius)

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:18 pm 
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i can see why i was confused

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:53 pm 
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my bad i should have changed that. It was swapped to lifesteal after alot of requests

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:12 am 
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Brevan wrote:
Too long to quote.


Do try building a melee Druid who has no source of DR, no source of DS, and gets locked into IM with Fury. Zealer/Smiter has the same story, but at least they have a source of damage reduction.

There is no "new" strategies to overcome. It's just "Well, let's make a poison build now, because melee isn't going to do much else besides stand in front of the boss".
Melee was already killed against the two hardest act bosses with the removal of significant crushing blow, and had their killing power toned down all through-out with the amplify damage nerf. Why make them absolutely hell to gear with little DR, no DS, and little resists? It locks you into playing melee characters like Sins or Barbs that are naturally strong due to skills (having critical strike and resists given to them). Even then, with the Amp & CB nerf, you're no longer a good damage dealer, just a tank.

You're completely missing the point that all this does is make poison dominate the game even harder. They were already safer than melee, and already killed just as fast. With the + to skill changes you already have similar skills than you had with skillers, without the end-game farming required for them.

I'd love to hear thoughts from people who've played melee from the beginning of the reset like I have. Almost anyone I've spoken to that's rolled a melee char this patch feels the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:48 am 
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never was much of a melee person (minus the fclaw i had last season) but I have seen the nerfs on gear and it is becoming difficult in nm to have max res once you get there (res and dr/ds etc have been nerfed). I must say I chose the char I wanted to play first this season after looking at the patch notes and deciding what I wanted to play. And yes there are some drawbacks and some gains to be made in a lot of builds. I personally enjoyed maxxin amp last season and will do so this season for an extra edge.

New builds like molten boulder are now viable...
summon nec's are nowhere to be found...

Tanks are needed and in high demand i think...especially with the baal q and not helping lower levels...now not only will people be rushing but the people that need to be rushed will be in higher demand for their "quest". Now that you got your high level chars to nm who is going to do your norm quests?

May have a new goal this season...kill baal and be done with it...no need to torture myself over sammy or LoS on HC but who knows....lots of time between now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:53 am 
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Frenzy DR% bonus was changed to life steal? Great ...


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Shantu wrote:
Frenzy DR% bonus was changed to life steal? Great ...

lame


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:09 pm 
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at the request of multiple people, I would have preferred it to be dr% too

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:13 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
at the request of multiple people, I would have preferred it to be dr% too

ditto. I recall when the suggestion arose from a discussion between Jarl and I. The idea that frenzy barbs cannot get %DR from shields was a major motivator as well as them just taking a butt ton of dmg during fights from my experience.

oh well....

(and people say that we never found middle ground and just made things the way we wanted them! har)

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:54 pm 
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Quote:
(and people say that we never found middle ground and just made things the way we wanted them! har)

indeed
Image

weaps seem ok, the only problem is melees need to get lucky to get the gg damage, its just the nature of the way melees work though, they are always very item dependant and its always tricky at the start of the ladder

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:29 pm 
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dr would have been too good if it was part of the self buff that lasts 16 seconds or whatever but i dont see any reason why it couldnt b dr for 1 sec like conc zerk and smite buffs. no shield no dr why play frenzy

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:21 pm 
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it has to be for the duration of the buff, the skill uses skill functions that dont allow multiple durations for multiple buffs

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:26 pm 
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well LL really doesnt bring any appeal to the build for the most part id say since they are lacking in boss fights more now than you cant get 1h uniques with cb or even 2hs that a barb can 1h wield. also nice str bugg'd barbs in that ss?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:33 pm 
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i think they are mules


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:39 pm 
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im assuming ithak is a barb and if saying he'd need strength id imagine that is his sword. i could b wrong ofc. these are my assumptions. i have no doubt some could b mules, perhaps all

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:56 pm 
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all are mules, he is off to the right. think he has about 100str (I can see his silks anyway)

Edit: just asked him in game, 100 base str

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:18 pm 
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zzzz

ITT: Thread gets derailed and no actual posts to dispute my argument or explain the nerfs to res, DS, and DR. Already killed their damage, let's kill their survivability too I guess.

As far as gear goes, my melee character has been decked out all ladder. Even with the best possible unique weapons with 40+ ED jewels, it's still just standing in front of a boss and tanking. You already can't kill trash as a melee, as least give me the satisfaction of boss fights.

Or is that the direction you wanted to take with melee? To have them just stand in front of a boss?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:09 am 
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i didn't change the items. It was actually people complaining that melees were getting too big of a buff with the increased damage etc and saying they should be nerfed that probs resulted in the ds nerfs. I know we wouldn't be doing nearly aswell without the barb to tank though.

Im not saying they are perfect, but its still possible to use a CB weapon if you like. Even 4% is 1 hit in 25 removing a big chunk of hp

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:28 am 
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Abominae wrote:
ITT: Thread gets derailed and no actual posts to dispute my argument or explain the nerfs to res, DS, and DR. Already killed their damage, let's kill their survivability too I guess.


Didn't seem worth while as it has already been discussed ad nauseum.

Were melee nerfed? Yes
Were casters nerfed? Yes
Were melee buffed? yes
Were casters buffed? yes

There was lots of give and take. In general the changes were designed to keep normal easy for new players, give a slight difficulty ramp up in NM, and make Hell a challenging experience. Dramatically reducing DS on items is one of the ways this was accomplished. It also served to put Barbs and Zons in a much stronger dmg position as their critical strike skill actually has some use now. Druids got a big boost in the form of much more IAS across the board on weapons, allowing them to be one of the most effective distributors of the newly reduced CB.

There is more detail and discussion that can be gone in to - but the bottom line is the patch is out there and you should give it a try. Did it mess everything up? Who knows? People still seem to be advancing along just fine, so it must not be screwed up all that much. Last patch made things a little overly easy - maybe this patch will make things overly hard. There's only one sure way to really know and it isn't by responding to or writing posts like what you have written. Get out there and play the game for a few MONTHS before passing some final judgement on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:09 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Were casters nerfed? Yes


Do explain to me just how casters were nerfed, as I've seen no such thing. It's easier now to obtain massively high skills than it was before. The only "nerf" to casters was an overall nerf to resists. The gear changes all reflect casters getting great gear and great +skills and pierce all around. There is absolutely no downside to playing a caster in this patch.
Were hammers touched? Hardly. (And yes, I've played a Hammerdin this patch) I'm not even positive if the flag change worked, as I've seen no decrease in damage.
Were poison builds touched? Not at all.

You killed one out of three that dominate bossfights without touching the other two. Melee were over nerfed, to the point where there is no incentive to roll one. Whatever "buffs" they received don't even begin to outweigh the incredible gear nerfs and overall reduction of Amp & Decrep.

blue_myriddn wrote:
Dramatically reducing DS on items is one of the ways this was accomplished. It also served to put Barbs and Zons in a much stronger dmg position as their critical strike skill actually has some use now. Druids got a big boost in the form of much more IAS across the board on weapons, allowing them to be one of the most effective distributors of the newly reduced CB.


So the solution to a melee Druid is to rely on a 1/25 chance to do significant damage? Two of the biggest bosses in this game cast Iron Maiden, so using Fury with a decent damage weapon is not an option. By having no DS, you've already effectively cut a Fury druid's damage in half.
Add in the fact the top-end 2handers have big strength requirements, cutting your vitality by quite a bit, and the lack of DR there is no incentive to build a Fury Druid other than novelty. If melee in general are hurting, where does it put that once viable build?

As for more on the DS nerfs, you do realize that's still a nerf to characters who have innate critical strike? Before it was easy to obtain close to 100% deadly strike on characters who have innate critical strike (Not that hard even on those w/o it). Now you get around 50% deadly strike for a character who has it innately. That's still a 50% overall damage decrease.
More so, it creates a huge gap between melee characters who can innately receive critical strike and those who cannot. 50% total damage output is quite huge and skyrockets Barbarians as the undisputed king of melee. Not that they haven't always been the best, but now the gap has widened by quite a bit.


blue_myriddn wrote:
There's only one sure way to really know and it isn't by responding to or writing posts like what you have written. Get out there and play the game for a few MONTHS before passing some final judgement on it.


So... the easily 70+ hours I've already put into this reset amount to no knowledge of this patch? Is constructive criticism on something you may have done wrong THAT bad Blue? Some of the melee nerfs were great and warranted ideas, but when you combine a whole lot of game changing nerfs and throw them together, it's very possible to create the mess melee are in now.

To take your own advice, have you even played through with a melee character at all? What experience do you have with melee this patch that can prove the collective changes were in the right direction? I'd like to hear it if you do, because I've put in a fair share of time to playing melee this ladder and would like to know if your experiences are much different than mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:19 am 
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poison cloud was removed from strike. rather dmg nerf since its already the hardest psn to apply..

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:10 am 
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Abominae wrote:
I've put in a fair share of time to playing melee this ladder


That right there kills everything else you have to say.
1 week is not a "fair share of time".

Relax, putting out another patch so soon is foolhardy. Give this patch some real time and then see how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:47 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:

That right there kills everything else you have to say.
1 week is not a "fair share of time".

Relax, putting out another patch so soon is foolhardy. Give this patch some real time and then see how it goes.


So, you're going to completely nullify my argument because I've only spent 70+ hours playing a melee character instead of 200+? Really? I don't have to spend a month rolling around in dog shit to know I'm rolling around in dog shit.

When did I request you slap out a new patch? I'm just trying to bring to light the fact you mutilated melee by over nefing them. It's something you should really consider and look into. Since when is feedback a bad thing? As far as I can see, as irate as my posts are, they're intelligent and bring up valid points that have yet to be disputed, especially by your arguments.

But apparently you're too proud or whatever it is to admit you may have done something slightly wrong. Instead you just slide around my points and argument because don't have the experience or the rhetoric to win. That's fine, you can do that. Even if you won't publicly admit it, at least take a look at melee. Play one and get back to me, you'll see how drastically changed they were and you might understand where I'm coming from.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:58 pm 
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sure - i am plannin on playin a melee.

Just like i heard that rabies druids were broken last ladder b/c carrion was removed, I suspect that I will have the same experience with melee this time around.

I will resummarize my post for you in fewer words.

You think melee was nerfed ridiculously hard.
I think melee was simply nerfed

One of us is wrong - and time will determine which one.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:37 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
sure - i am plannin on playin a melee.

Just like i heard that rabies druids were broken last ladder b/c carrion was removed, I suspect that I will have the same experience with melee this time around.

I will resummarize my post for you in fewer words.

You think melee was nerfed ridiculously hard.
I think melee was simply nerfed

One of us is wrong - and time will determine which one.


Good, I expect to hear from you. Do be sure to tell how twinked you were, what melee build, and your party composition. Try one as the primary damage dealer for your party, as I have this ladder. Tell me how it is doing act bosses centering around a melee character instead of tanking for poison builds.

Funny you bring up the Rabies Druid, because I highly doubt one major nerf is comparable to four or five collective major nerfs, but I guess we'll see. Obviously your experience with melee will be more insightful than mine. The hours you'll put into melee (not months, like you requested of my arguments) will definitely determine who was right or wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:23 pm 
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why did you center your damage plan around melee after the obvious nerfs and lack of 20% gg cb in norm?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Try one as the primary damage dealer for your party, as I have this ladder.

That is a fail. Pure physical melee characters (barbs, druids, paladins) will be outperformed in damage by casters. Just like casters will always be out-tanked by physical melee characters.

If you have expectations otherwise, you are misunderstanding the balance. Clearly you seem to want a character who can do everything (high life, high dmg), whereas I have a more balanced view of things. This is a team mod and members of the team have different roles.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:42 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Abominae wrote:
Try one as the primary damage dealer for your party, as I have this ladder.

That is a fail. Pure physical melee characters (barbs, druids, paladins) will be outperformed in damage by casters. Just like casters will always be out-tanked by physical melee characters.

If you have expectations otherwise, you are misunderstanding the balance. Clearly you seem to want a character who can do everything (high life, high dmg), whereas I have a more balanced view of things. This is a team mod and members of the team have different roles.



So, a character that already has to itemize for superior defense and life than a caster shouldn't be able to deal significant damage? Casters don't need to itemize for much defense at all, as they're never in a bosses face like a melee is.

I do have expectations that my melee character, who is useless on trash, should be able to deal significant damage to a boss. Why roll a melee character when I can use a character that isn't frustrating against trash and does bossfights better?

Your "balanced" view is a melee character being nothing more than a damage sponge. But let's not forget Hammerdins who can main tank bosses and deal significantly more damage than a melee ever will now.

So basically what you're saying is, you want to bring this mod into a direction where melee are nothing more than a character to stand in front of a boss, correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:17 pm 
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which would be stupid as amp damage a rather powerful curse would be less favoured since nobody builds phys dps.
also paladins dont get life buffs
i would say wait until hell gear is equiped.
damage will obviously be better by then.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
which would be stupid as amp damage a rather powerful curse would be less favoured since nobody builds phys dps.
also paladins dont get life buffs
i would say wait until hell gear is equiped.
damage will obviously be better by then.


Don't quite understand the point of your post or what you're trying to convey. Since this is such a team mod, obviously the Hammerdin will have both Oak & BO. With max block and some proper DR gear, you have a main tank easily. Who is also a primary damage dealer.

And news flash, Amplify Damage is no longer a rather powerful curse.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
i would say wait until hell gear is equiped.
damage will obviously be better by then.


Not really fair that melee chars have to struggle through norm and nm

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:56 pm 
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i was commenting on yours and blues posts.
this IS a team mod, so you have chars that will dps and that will tank. hammerdins are too good, so is poison. the paladin does need a buff from his party to be the main tank tho.
amp is plenty powerful. it is the only way to reduce physical resistance in the game(nd decrep).
there is nothing that does it better than amp. im saying it would be used less if nobody builds pys dps since if melee's were no longer meant to deal dmg the only phys dps would b nado's and molten boulder? unsure of the second one. i think they deal some phys?

also melee's have always suffered at the start of a reset. not this much of course. because if you dont have a good weapon you are not dealing dmg since you wont b finding those 5% cb boots or gloves to help you out.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:46 am 
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Zikur wrote:
i was commenting on yours and blues posts.
this IS a team mod, so you have chars that will dps and that will tank. hammerdins are too good, so is poison. the paladin does need a buff from his party to be the main tank tho.
amp is plenty powerful. it is the only way to reduce physical resistance in the game(nd decrep).
there is nothing that does it better than amp. im saying it would be used less if nobody builds pys dps since if melee's were no longer meant to deal dmg the only phys dps would b nado's and molten boulder? unsure of the second one. i think they deal some phys?

also melee's have always suffered at the start of a reset. not this much of course. because if you dont have a good weapon you are not dealing dmg since you wont b finding those 5% cb boots or gloves to help you out.


Yep exactly I know my source of dmg was purely cb(ww barb). Other guys in the party were killing trash and stuff and I was meant to kill bosses. That situation is whole norm and part of nm until I get some good gear, because barbs are heavily gear dependant

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:53 pm 
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Sad as it is man I bitched about this part with melee being to nerfed way before this patch .. I went out of my way and tested all these changes and still said it was way to much and I was told I don't know shit..
Biggest problem with big patchs is not testing them properly.. There should have been a one month beta test to make sure that all these changes would work and be balanced... Sad as it is no testing= lame bugs / Glitches / Runewords not working/ tps not showing up// And builds ether being to nerfed or not nerfed enough. I find it very funny that I can solo most of the hole game with a psn necro still...

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:39 pm 
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not surprising you choose the most OP build every ladder.

You said nothing about melee's, you were begging for caster buffs and complaining about skillers being taken out "zomg, now I have no skillers, so EVERYONE will make a melee" yeh you got that right on the money.

Please split these 2 posts off to the argument forum, the rest of the topic is a pretty good discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:03 pm 

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the deadly strike nerf was going a bit over. just nerfing cb would have been enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:37 pm 
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the other gay thing on the patch is...


im in team we at andariel hell ( ooh yes soon A2 hell )

no ! omg 3 melee chars with heal amp curse and SS anda cant take her.

other gays join and and mean i take a slot ( my lvl 78 healer pala need andariel too )... ooh yes he got 2 chars hes lying...

the next thing is... next andariel game a sorc cry why i didnt do LR on mobs , ooh sorry my dear i got no LR ... wtf i dont need skill it on my bonespear - teeth necro.

the sorc say im a idiot and more asshole bla bla.... nice community !!!

thx for this teamplay and this gay patch


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:45 pm 
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i dont understand a word you just said except maybe you are a bone nec without LR? if so you should reconsider your own teamplay.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:54 pm 

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Ok well I wanted to make a separate post explaining my opinion but I guess I'll do it here. I 100% support Zac in every aspect. The nerf to melees was way overboard and completely ridiculous. Casters.. as overpowered as they are were "indirectly" buffed even. There is more +Skill variety on items now and damage has not been touched. I"ve seen sorcs go through everything on HardCore, rabies still rapes, and EVERYTHING caster oriented still dominates. If you want to balance the game.. you have to take a whole heartedly approach. You can't just bash one aspect of the game and ignore all the others.

The nerfs to melees are ridiculous.. you went way way overboard. CB is gone, DS is hardly anywhere, DR is ridiculously low. You took away their damage and their survivability. I don't understand the point here?

What baffles me the most.. no offense blue.. is how you can feel or think melees needed more adjustment than casters?!? Is that a joke? Do you know how OVER POWERED most casters are? I just had a bone necro in Hell HC and his party ADMIT how overpowered bone necros are. You need to have another look at TIER damage on any caster, elemental based character.. seriously.

If you want balance, balance everything. it's as simple as that.

I'm still willing to go into further detail if needed but like I say.. I don't understand the "balance" aspect of what was done to melees if everything else was ignored, and apologize if I sound offensive or overly aggressive.. not my intention at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:59 pm 
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bone necros were not touched since last patch. There were requests to BUFF them but they were not implemented (thank god) They seem fine in hell, before that, they are too much.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:22 pm 

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Synergies need to be more spread, that's the problem. Turning it into a 60 pt shield.. screwed it up. Damage is wayyy too high because of that.. more work needs to be done with Bone necros... and yes in Hell their dmg is not as good but before that.. they obliterate everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Quote:
and yes in Hell their dmg is not as good but before that.. they obliterate everything.


hold that thought. with a little regearing I just got an extra 50% pierce at the cost of 5k spear damage. My spirit damage went up to 16k though so 4k damage drop for 50% pierce gain. Thats a big impact on hell damage. also maxed my res in the process

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:52 pm 

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just to play the devil's advocate, i'll point out a few things.

1. melees are heavily gear-oriented. thats just a fact. 60 skill points and a few skill items basically take casters quite high in terms of their potential firepower, while a melee is heavily dependant on weapons, str, armor, ds, etc to really improve his performance. i don't think many melees are really well equipped right now to make a reasonable comparison.

2. the highest dps char in the game is still a melee. vita whore is not your friend if you want to hit hard.

3. what is the difference between a tank and melee? i would say they are 2 very different classes. i know a tank won't be hitting very hard after that crushing blow nerf, but has anyone tried yet to go fully melee dps? do they have good gear to give a reasonable comparison?

4. what characters specifically are lacking firepower as melees? barb? druid? paladin? i'm not convinced that they all are, because as i stated before, the highest dps char in the game is a melee, so i know for a fact that at least 1 of these classes is not underpowered.

in case everyone forgot, or if you are new, the reason melees were nerfed was because they could farm well and solo bosses easily with the right gear. quite frankly the melee's power was too much. i'm still certain they are just as able to solo as before with the right gear, as long as melees are patient enough to kill a boss in 2 minutes instead of 30 seconds. feel free to continue the discussion, i'm curious to see how the changes really have played out late game.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:29 pm 
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well, relay just got a cb weap on switch with an eth rune and an amethyst. with the blade he has -75% enemy def so he rarely misses.

3% cb is 1 hit in 33 being a cb. 5fpa ww means 1 cb every 7 seconds. 70 seconds to at least half a bosses hp and the casters can mop the rest of it up.

We just found a high all res tower shield with ICB and FBR that he quad socketed with skulls to use on switch. plan is for him to half the boss with the 2 hander then switch to sword/shield to tank for the last half.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:48 am 
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I just dont get it ,frenzy has damage reduce % or life steel or the stat with damage reduction dont work at all.I tested in single player and he doesn't seem to leech life with frenzy.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:36 pm 

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I just started playing a week ago and I've leveled a barbarian to 44, mostly through me whacking stuff alone in games. its taking forever. now i love barbs, theyre the coolest class ever created, but thats the only reason ive stuck with him so far.

my only request is that the death craft with deadly strike be reduced or eliminated at earlier levels...i cant find any good weapons, then when ive run leoric enough to save up for a pskull ill craft something and get something not worth using. the ed% is much better and would allow me to actually work for an early game weapon


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:40 pm 

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but when i do find a party, this mod is friggin amazing


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:42 pm 
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kurtistheturtle wrote:
but when i do find a party, this mod is friggin amazing

yep. that's the key. Unless you have twink gear, going solo is REALLY hard.

Don't bother trying to Craft a weapon until you have 4-6 gems to burn. For your first character, rely on sets and uniques. They have been buffed to help make things easier for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Just add next time boss dropping flawless gems, farming gems on rof is rather annoying. With gear of 8 diamonds I could tank and kill Diablo in 3 ppl game w/o any help (thorbarb w/o bo and dclaw sin doing the same dmg but died at start bcos no diamonds). Will see how it works for baal. So far my nec with 52% amp is still waiting for a team...


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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:22 am 
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in norm? My light zon is at diablo so could join you quick

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 Post subject: Re: Melee nerfed ridiculously hard.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:54 pm 

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Pious wrote:
just to play the devil's advocate, i'll point out a few things.

1. melees are heavily gear-oriented. thats just a fact. 60 skill points and a few skill items basically take casters quite high in terms of their potential firepower, while a melee is heavily dependant on weapons, str, armor, ds, etc to really improve his performance. i don't think many melees are really well equipped right now to make a reasonable comparison.

2. the highest dps char in the game is still a melee. vita whore is not your friend if you want to hit hard.

3. what is the difference between a tank and melee? i would say they are 2 very different classes. i know a tank won't be hitting very hard after that crushing blow nerf, but has anyone tried yet to go fully melee dps? do they have good gear to give a reasonable comparison?

4. what characters specifically are lacking firepower as melees? barb? druid? paladin? i'm not convinced that they all are, because as i stated before, the highest dps char in the game is a melee, so i know for a fact that at least 1 of these classes is not underpowered.

in case everyone forgot, or if you are new, the reason melees were nerfed was because they could farm well and solo bosses easily with the right gear. quite frankly the melee's power was too much. i'm still certain they are just as able to solo as before with the right gear, as long as melees are patient enough to kill a boss in 2 minutes instead of 30 seconds. feel free to continue the discussion, i'm curious to see how the changes really have played out late game.



I wanted to reply to this but I never did but theres a few things I want to say now that you've mentioned all of this. I don't agree entirely with what you say. Melees were never the highest damage chars in the game, are you joking me? By what reasoning? You can't negate the fact most elemental chars HAVE pierce, and with tons of skillers? That SIGNIFICANTLY increases their OVER all damage. Soloing bosses would have required amp of some form.. at least and CB is the main reason a melee could solo a boss. The ds nerf etc. was too harsh over all.. the barb doesn't suffer as bad as paladin and druid do.

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