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 Post subject: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:40 pm 

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One thing comes to mind, since dr is being nerfed on most items, my thought on dr as applied to smite, fade and frenzy. 1% dr per 2 points spent seems like a better choice. I feel it's rather counter productive to nerf gear while giving certain classes dr buffs from skills. Your gear changes make it more difficult to gain dr. Same should apply to skills. Just my 2 cents worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:10 pm 
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the reason for the dr for those skills was, you can't leech with smite, fade already gets 1%dr per soft point at the min so its being reduced in effectiveness and frenzy I was told wasn't popular due to having no option to use a shield for the heavy hitting phys bosses. I suggested lifesteal on frenzy instead but dr% was preferred by most

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 Post subject: Re: Patch suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:22 pm 

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Yes, I realize this. I'm only suggesting a slight reduction in the dr per point. If you think like this, ShaftStop has it's dr reduced from 30% to 10% as an example. Now adding in 20% dr on a 20 point smite build brings dr to 30%, using a CoA with 2x ber runes puts it at 55% on a 50% cap you're there. Which is why I feel, lowering the dr to 1% per 2 hard points is a viable option in these skills. Unless my memory is incorrect (possible btw), there are no skills other than fade which currently have built in dr per hard point spent. This will still make it possible to hit the dr cap, albeit more difficult to achieve.

As for being unable to leech with smite, that is true, however there is always lifetap which is more effective than leeching.

edit: Currently as an example, both Halaberd's and Demonhorns have 2-3 soc and 10% dr on them. As such, hitting the 50% dr cap with the added dr from skills would be made way too easy IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:11 pm 
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lifetap is no good late nm and for hell, without amp you don't do enough phys damage to leech any life back.

Fade currently gives 1%dr per soft point so 1 pointed can yield 25%dr easily. Dr% has been lowered on skulls iirc so it'll be hard enough for people to get maxed dr%. Since pallys have no self lifebuff, it seems reasonable that they should get some damage reduction like an assasin does.

I know the endgame items have decent amounts of DR on them but those aint available for 95% of the game

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 Post subject: Re: Patch suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:05 pm 

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While I acknowledge all of what you are saying, I pose this question: Why should dr per point skills only be available on 3 skills in the entire game? Example, zon's do not have any such skills, yes they have valk and decoy, but nothing to absorb dmg. Dodge and avoid are only partially effective on a good day. Necro and druid have armors to absorb certain dmg to go along with their meat shields. Sorcs have their cold armors and energy shield. I guess my point is, why not buff other classes with a similar dr per point skill as well? Seems certain types of classes are being favored above others.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch suggestions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:47 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
edit: Currently as an example, both Halaberd's and Demonhorns have 2-3 soc and 10% dr on them. As such, hitting the 50% dr cap with the added dr from skills would be made way too easy IMO.


Good discussion, we definitely don't want it to be too easy to max out any resist (including dmg resist). As you can see from the lack of a new page for the Barbarian helms, I haven't gotten around to re-balancing them. I suspect that they should both have their DR reduced though to make them more consistent with other helms and armor.

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 Post subject: Re: Patch suggestions
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:50 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
Why should dr per point skills only be available on 3 skills in the entire game? Example, zon's do not have any such skills, yes they have valk and decoy, but nothing to absorb dmg. Dodge and avoid are only partially effective on a good day. Necro and druid have armors to absorb certain dmg to go along with their meat shields. Sorcs have their cold armors and energy shield. I guess my point is, why not buff other classes with a similar dr per point skill as well? Seems certain types of classes are being favored above others.


Certain classes are being treated differently because they deliver dmg differently. The 3 classes you listed (zon, necro, sorc) all deliver dmg ranged in their primary mode (not counting variants such as melee sorcs), so they do not need to get as close to their targets. Hence, they don't get DR in their skill set.

Characters that need to get up close and personal to attack will be treated differently. That is only natural.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Melee zon? It's her primary mode too. IIRC there was discussion long time ago why they suck compared to other chars and only 3 new uniqs were added for them. No dr% on skill like perfection/strategy is a sin.
I know about dodge and removing animation, tho zons hp gain is very bad compared to other class.


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:30 pm 

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I have to agree here. Just because other classes may not have to get up close and personal doesn't mean they don't deserve a bit of love. Think about this, druids get CA (absorbs ele dmg) and oak, or when shifted get a nice boost to life from that. Necros have BA which absorbs physical. W/O a source of dr from skills, why would anyone attempt a jabazon this reset? Then again, sorc FA, SA and CA have no dr on them. I feel 1% dr per 2 hard points spent on any skill adding dr should be the ideal number here.

All I'm saying is, it seems to go against many gear changes you propose Blue. Nerf the hell out of dr on many items, only to give a select few skills that amount of dr by way of skills, doesn't seem right. Which is why I personally feel the cap needs to be reduced to say 40% max. Reduce the absorbs cap to say 30%. That would serve as enough a reduction to be noticeable with out being a game breaker.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:33 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
I have to agree here. Just because other classes may not have to get up close and personal doesn't mean they don't deserve a bit of love.


This isn't true. Classes are not equal. That is a very important concept that shouldn't be underestimated.

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All I'm saying is, it seems to go against many gear changes you propose Blue. Nerf the hell out of dr on many items, only to give a select few skills that amount of dr by way of skills, doesn't seem right. Which is why I personally feel the cap needs to be reduced to say 40% max. Reduce the absorbs cap to say 30%. That would serve as enough a reduction to be noticeable with out being a game breaker.


I didn't balance the skills, that was PureRage and the rest of the forum. I certainly agree that looking at the numbers critically is well worth doing - I haven't done that though so I can't comment on it.

All I provided was an answer to your question, nothing more, nothing less.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:25 pm 
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I would personally make fend deal damage over a small area via a splash, that way they are the most effective trashing melee class but less effective without a team with lifebuffs to back them up for bosses. Barbs have ww for trashing, sin's have dtail, pallys now have aoe vengance.

On the note about the melee zons life, theres not really any way to fix that by not overpowering the ranged zons. You could always add a lifebuff chargeup (like smite has with its dr%) thats only effective as long as you continue attacking.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:49 pm 

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The points I'm trying to make are, we cannot allow certain classes an "unfair advantage" over others. Trying to give the dev team some food for thought that should be viable and worth testing. By no means am I a skilled programmer/coder. To me, setting smite, fade and frenzy at 1% dr per 2 hard points is fair. Reducing cb to 1% and dr to 5% on ber should be in line with other changes. Also, consider setting a hard cap of 40% on dr and 30% on sorbs. Would like feedback on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:43 pm 
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Work on everything has pretty much stopped anyway from what i can gather, any new content will have to be redone from scratch I assume. Everthing that was done is now up in the air with a select few people deciding that 2 weeks from a possible reset, they would get involved and throw out masses of complaints about stuff that has been being dicussed/worked on for months. Someone else is more than welcome to take over the stuff i've worked on. I don't have time to re-do everything that was discussed though.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:44 am 
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Quote:
Also, consider setting a hard cap of 40% on dr and 30% on sorbs.
Requires code editing, if you find right offset that controls it, let us know.


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:47 pm 

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Is there a program you guys are using to look at and edit hard coded stuff? I'd like to look through code a bit just to see whats there, who knows maybe I can figure out a thing or 2.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:04 pm 
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ollydbg. And I doubt anyone even consider changing dlls. I did it for mana burn tho dunno if they need it.
!changing hard cap is reinventing HU and D2LoD mechanics, just leave it as it is unless you want to make it unplayable.


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:59 pm 

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Looking at things such as dr and sorb caps are hardly game breaking. 10% changes in those areas for testing could be worthwhile imo. No, it's not re-inventing HU but altering some areas that would add more strategy back into the game. For example, going through chaos. No longer would using 2 dwarf stars for diablo, a dwarf and raven frost for amon, 2 shocks for de sies and get sob from whisp/metalgrid for moloch be a recipe for survival. Nor would using skulled shield + shaftstop/string of ears for physical damage. I'm not suggesting a major nerf here unlike some of the high end items being suggested. However, these small changes would affect everyone equally. As I know you have read the suggested changes, some skills would gain boosts to offset the gear changes, while others would not. Adjusting the hard caps, seems like an alternative that is viable and worth looking at. Yet, you are the only one who has said anything regarding this idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:15 pm 
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Ekhm. Difficulty is being changed, sob is being fixed, overall stacking res and CB is being nerfed, skillers are getting nerfed or complete being out(imo staying) and you want you want reduce max dr/abs cap? Pushing everyone into vita again? HU not only has higher diff than vanilla/other mods - it has cool items you are possible to do funny build with you couldn't normally. If you want everything to be removed and do this unplayable trash mod then yeah, go for it. At least give something in return if you throw "reduce overall cap" like "hey, give +300hp on every item so noone would have to max vita and wear angelic set on hell". :P


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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:54 pm 

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I think you're missing something here. Pure and Blue are saying they've heard the item/skiller issue has been put on hold by Mancer. I'm proposing an alternative to major gear nerfage. It would be a one or the other type of deal and not both together. Perhaps if we capped these as such: dr 40%, sorbs 30% cb 10% and made minor changes to a few pieces of gear. I'm not trying to make this mod unplayable, in fact the opposite is true. Hopefully this clears up my thought process.

The other posts I have been making with regards to gear changes, have been such to try bringing the gear in line across the board. As for skillers, I kinda like the idea of using shards in place of skiller gcs. That would better control skills balance throught the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:23 pm 
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caping any kind of resist just means its easier to hit the cap and the player can pay less attention to that stat.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:54 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
caping any kind of resist just means its easier to hit the cap and the player can pay less attention to that stat.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that also mean it reduces the effect of them as well? By reducing the dr and sorb caps, while they are easier to hit, should mean you'd still take slightly more dmg than at current caps. I'm posing ideas, that while altering game play, wouldn't mean a total revamp of all items and skills. There are many looking to increase difficulty level of the game. I'm looking at ideas that would affect all players in the same fashions. Some of the suggested ideas wouldn't do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:55 pm 
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Well, not really since you are cursed 90% of the time during boss fights, your damage reduce isn't at the 50% mark, its more like 0 or negative. Vs trash it don't matter at all since you can completely negate 100% of trsh damage with stacked PDR/MDR.

I've played mods whare the caps on stuff have been reduced. Aftermath is one example whare they currently have an elemental resist cap of around 25 for all chars. You get maxed res by the stoney field and never have to worry about it again. zzz. By the time you are in act 2 even conviction and lower res don't drop you below maxed res.

On the whole, easy to hit caps leave nothing to the imagination, it becomes a fact instead of a possibility

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:55 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
On the whole, easy to hit caps leave nothing to the imagination, it becomes a fact instead of a possibility

Throws petrol on the fire
I'm not against nerfing items, but i'm offering ideas as well. I do however think that nerfing dr on the majority of high end gear is fine. I do not however, think adding it back in on skills like smite (for 5 sec while smiting), frenzy or fade isn't acceptable either. That gives those 3 skills an easy ride to hitting the dr cap. Why in the hell should all other skills and classes suffer penalties EXCEPT those 3? As one prime example, using full gris on a smiter. They can hit the dr cap with ease, while a mele zon would have to struggle to come close. That is bullshit and you know it. My point is, singling out certain skills for buffs while ignoring others isn't the answer either.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:20 am 
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are you offering to do all this or are you just demanding stuff?

1: assasins already have dr from softpoints from fade. They also have no self lifebuff.
2: pallys have no self lifebuff, smite deals very low damage and is a single target attack.
3: frenzy was changed to lifesteal months ago after this exact discussion.
4: melee zon has access to the best tank in the game (decoy) and a strong valk. I played through alongside TheUtter's melee zon this season. She done fine and had no issues hitting max dr%. If your experience with the build differs from that then what exactly was it that was the issue with your melee zon and what could be done to fix it?
Part of the suggestions was to remove the ainmation from DEA to help out the melee zon too. (I guess you missed that?)

There is no point even continuing this since none of it will happen anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:27 am 

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I'm not demanding anything. As I said, I'm not a coder, however I'm willing to look at things once I have the tools to do so, always willing to try. I agree that decoy is a good tank along with valk. I have not as yet made a melee zon, still working out what gear I'd use and the skills I'd max. I was drawing a comparison only based on what has been offered as suggested gear changes. I know Mancer has said no to major changes. I do however agree that there needs to be changes to re-balance the game, some classes are op as it stands. I merely offered an alternative that to me seems plausible and viable nothing more, nothing less.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:39 am 
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If you are interested in learning about how the files work together and looking through them then you might ant to start here.

Running through that should give you a good starting place. Once you've done that, simply browsing the file will teach you everything you need to know. (you learn as you go).

theUtter has a post on his melee zon I'm sure. You might wnt to give tht a look if you are interested in the build as he has played it through twice (due to a death at hell baal with the first one)

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 Post subject: Re: Patch suggestions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:14 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
kwikster wrote:
Why should dr per point skills only be available on 3 skills in the entire game? Example, zon's do not have any such skills, yes they have valk and decoy, but nothing to absorb dmg. Dodge and avoid are only partially effective on a good day. Necro and druid have armors to absorb certain dmg to go along with their meat shields. Sorcs have their cold armors and energy shield. I guess my point is, why not buff other classes with a similar dr per point skill as well? Seems certain types of classes are being favored above others.


Certain classes are being treated differently because they deliver dmg differently. The 3 classes you listed (zon, necro, sorc) all deliver dmg ranged in their primary mode (not counting variants such as melee sorcs), so they do not need to get as close to their targets. Hence, they don't get DR in their skill set.

Characters that need to get up close and personal to attack will be treated differently. That is only natural.

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 Post subject: Re: Damage Reduction on items and skills
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:36 am 

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Do you think I hadn't read that Zikur? Three things I'm not blind, deaf or stupid. All I have been trying to do here is, get a few people looking at things with a slightly different thought process. I know many here, are long term HU vets. I applaud them, I understand their wanting to make it challenging for themselves. My vocalizations here have been, don't forget the rest of HU who isn't like them. I for one, struggle mightly in hell running certain areas with a small party. Many of those changes will infact make it tougher for us. I have only 2 chars that have completed hell, and that was with a poison necro and 2 healers in the party. I worked my ass off getting to that point. I look forward to the coming reset, hopefully there can be a small amout of compromise on the patch to allow me to enjoy HU. As it stands, I've been working with a few people I brought to HU planning how to start reset.

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