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 Post subject: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:24 pm 
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Please post top/major balancing issues


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:26 pm 
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how soon? the list is long

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:35 pm 
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didnt jarl make a big text document in august ?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Repost from here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2036

Been working with the txt files that the team put together, suggestions mentioned on this forum and the general forum and interpretation of the goals that have been expressed to refine the items. Examples include: increasing hell & nm difficulty, reducing crushing blow, reducing access to absorbs, etc. It also includes:

Gear variation:
It has been indicated that players enjoy perfecting their characters and that "perfect" gear facilitates a healthy trading environment for endgame characters. As such, variation has been added on to a lot of end gear to allow people to gain that extra small edge should they be willing to devote the time in to obtaining the best possible gear. However, variation in low level gear has kept at a minimum to preserve normal difficulty's casual feel. I figure people are willing to farm gear for the end game, but really aren't interested in doing so for normal difficulty.

Themed gear:
Unlike B.net, characters tend to specialize in an area rather than be a jack of all trades; particularily at the end game spectrum. As such, items have been tailored to have a specific use rather than being more general purpose. This includes catering items for specific elements or skill sets (example - lightning skills, or wind elemental druids) as well as designing armor for specific purposes rather than simply making it "good" armor (example - designing armor for 2h characters that is distinct from armor for 1h characters). This principal was used more extensively on high end items than low end items to allow players to diversify a bit early.

Reduction of Late Game Resists:
Difficulty in this mod now scales such that Normal difficulty will not be very challenging to allow new players to adjust from b.net and Hell difficulty will be very challenging. Part of this will be accomplished by making all monsters "hit harder" by reducing both physical and elemental resistance to attacks. The ability of players to stack resists beyond 75% will be severely limited.

Addition of oSkill Zeal
oSkill zeal has been added to the lvl60 Sammy charm to encourage a diversity of builds that can utilize this skill

Increase in power, reduction in safety
When possible, items have been rebalanced to make them strong offensively but weak defensively in the late game. This means that characters will still pack a potent punch against monsters, it just means that monsters will be able to hit back very hard as well. This was done with the recognition that it simply isn't fun to slog through areas and not be able to kill things with any sort of reasonable speed.

Its a big task though and is still in progress. I figured I would get you what I have at the moment though.

Currently that includes:
Helms
Armor
Belts
Shields
Gloves
Boots
Paladin Shields
Necro Shields
Druid Pelts
Amazon Weapons

Aldur's
BK Swords
Elemental Set
Griswold's
Heaven's Brethren
Hwanin's
IK
Mav's
Naj's
Nat's
Orphan's
Sazabi
Soulmancer's
Tal Rasha's
Disciple
Trangs

Gems & Runes
Charms

This assumes that we are going to have some sort of limitation in skillers.
You can see them in a modified critterkiller website that I am constructing to keep things straight:

Grey text = removed
Red text = nerf
Green text = buff
dark red = damage done by calculation

Just use the nav on top to navigate through the pages.

Things may change a bit as I move through the weapons and sets as I always think of things as a whole and not just as the 1 item being balanced; which is why I built this site so that I can visualize the full gear options that a player has. In short, this is not necessarily finalized by any means.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:02 pm 
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GG

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:16 pm 
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Hm, since you posted gear changes - have you improved mods of rare/magic items ?


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:00 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Hm, since you posted gear changes - have you improved mods of rare/magic items ?


I don't see any need for that. Rolled rares are already powerful. Socketted rares are also already powerful for low level characters. Rare jewelry is already very powerful.

Magic items are likely to always remain simply useful for crafted items and/or starting characters due to the limited number of mods they can get.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:10 pm 
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Well, a reset sooner rather then later is on the horizon... I wanted to do some slight adjustments to fix major balancing issues. I'm not looking to spend a lot of time doing a drastic overhaul... Hell Unleashed has been an off and on project for many years, but I'm essentially done with it. I'm bored of modding D2 and playing D2 so its hard to invest a lot of time in addressing everyones concerns...

My major modding projects will be reserved for the coming year most likely with a lot of interesting games coming out with potential for modding... Trust me, I'd love to create a Hell Unleashed 2 for Diablo 3...

People want a reset soon. A lot of players also want balancing issues addressed. Any work I do and changes I make will be slight. If you leave it up to me I'll focus on trying to address the major issues with simple fixes... But if the community wants something more extensive then yah a fan made update would be more in order... Something I can implement and distributed.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:17 pm 
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sure - I can implement all that stuff in txt files and keep it simple. I have a slow week coming up, so i might be able to get things wrapped up in about 2 weeks.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:22 pm 
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Well if you can do it, and if it is the general consensus of the community wants these changes, then I'll support it. Like I said, if you leave it up to it would be only slight fixes and changes...

I am a little concerned about monsters all inflicted more damage... Wouldn't that just make HP and Vit even more required then they are now?


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:30 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I don't see any need for that. Rolled rares are already powerful

But how about elemental damage and 511cap? That could open some new possibilities. Well if it's not changed then ok.
Soulmancer wrote:
Wouldn't that just make HP and Vit even more required then they are now?
Maybe people will play with bigger teams than now - like 60% of games are now priv with 1 char.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:34 pm 
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I don't think they'll hit any harder but it`ll be more difficult to cover every aspect of damage negation with a single equip setup. At the min you just need to change 2 rings to be immune to any elemental attacks from a boss.

The only way to make vita less important is to give less life per vit and more life per level. That or make the other stats more usefull such as MDR from energy, PDR from str, or whatever. That would require hidden passives and stuff though.

As far as increasing the elemental damage cap from 511, that is a good idea IMO.

it's a simple adjustment of the savebits column in itemstatcost.txt

the saveadd column is taken away from the final numbers in the table below for the savebits column

0 = 0
1 = 1
2 = 3
3 = 7
4 = 15
5 = 31
6 = 63
7 = 127
8 = 255
9 = 511
10 = 1,023

Ie. the stat for maxhp% has a 6 in the savebits column and a 10 in the saveadd column. 63-10 = the cap we are at now of 53%

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Well yeah, there was a topic you even created new uniq, but I believe somehow that idea died.
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The only way to make vita less important is to give less life per vit and more life per level.
That + cut massive stats from items and let wpns get better ed when you invest into str/dex... now it's like 255 for every item? That's kinda silly a barb with 90str hits for 40k damage easily, all because +30str on every item.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:26 pm 
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Yeh, i forgot all about it tbh. The only problem with it is, any old single player chars won't be compatible with the new patch. Not a problem on the realm But for sp players it may be annoying.

Anyway, its a simple edit, only takes 5 mins and could benefit the avenger build and melee necro alot

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:33 pm 
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LoS Necro - make magic immune.

Whichever LoS is Poison Immune make magic immune.

no 1 hit ko with insane life buffs :(

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:23 pm 

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the only thing that i heard mentiioned that was really messed up was completely nerfing of cb............


thats my only complaint....................................god damn its nice being me heheheh

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:18 pm 
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I've tested out having 1%cb max on items and its quite good. You get the whole "OO GFG A CB JUST TURNED THIS FIGHY AROUND!!!" moments :)

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:46 am 
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I've read proposal changes topic again and I'm confused. Does a fire druid gets any changes? Or phoenix sin? Because besides Sob/psn nec fix and hdin nerf all changes are minor(for me) speaking of skills. Best hope that topic is outdated, will see.
Quote:
LoS Necro - make magic immune.

Whichever LoS is Poison Immune make magic immune.
He requires more nerfing than that. Now he's almost impossible to kill, after that change everyone would be using psn zons/rabbies dru for him. Lower his spell levels and lower hp, he's already a powerhouse with invisible spells taking 12k hp.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:29 pm 

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I don't think reducing Life per Vita would help (Atleast for some.) Zon's for instance, get total CRAP for Life per vita ratio. Maybe balance them out a bit more? My zon may not have the best gear in the world, but with over 400 vita, I should have more than 1.7k health. Just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Soulmancer wrote:
I am a little concerned about monsters all inflicted more damage... Wouldn't that just make HP and Vit even more required then they are now?


Good question. The community voice was pretty consistent on this though, so I adopted it as a core aspect when rebalancing items. More power and more danger was the main theme of suggestions.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:45 pm 
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Steel wrote:
I've read proposal changes topic again and I'm confused. Does a fire druid gets any changes? Or phoenix sin? Because besides Sob/psn nec fix and hdin nerf all changes are minor(for me) speaking of skills. Best hope that topic is outdated, will see.
Quote:
LoS Necro - make magic immune.

Whichever LoS is Poison Immune make magic immune.
He requires more nerfing than that. Now he's almost impossible to kill, after that change everyone would be using psn zons/rabbies dru for him. Lower his spell levels and lower hp, he's already a powerhouse with invisible spells taking 12k hp.


fire druids have adjusted synergies. I haven't done the phoenix sin releasing all charges asI don't have the files we were working on atm.

12k damage? thats teeth. I got 1 shot on my fire sorc with 22k life. I don't want to see him changed though, I just want the cheesy ways of killing him gone.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:23 pm 

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don't nerf the necro. he is easily tanked in the corner. fire control + curse neutralization. i am surprised no one has tried something so simple as that.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Hm, iirc that level will be flat when patch kicks in, and "community" also wanted to remove skillers. I'd really want to see someone toying with nec.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Well, IMO we could have got him with a fire sorc if the team had been smaller, the main problem was I kept losing sight of him if he went after someone else.

I don't think he should be nerfed though. Its good that he is something everybody fears. He is the only thing that kept my intrest this patch. Once the leap bug is removed it'll be alot better too.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:20 pm 
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changing his immunity is not nerfing imo...

typically speaking across many genre of games the caster is immune to what skill they use is all i am saying. Necro doesn't use any poison skills...

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Most people here bean bitching the mod is to easy.. Simple fix to this would be increase the diffaculty back to 3 spawn or even 4 that will make the game much harder without tuns of tweeking chars and such..And drop the dmg that the a1 phy merc gets from dex..Other tweeks such as the Los necro are not needed the los necro is fine just the way he is.. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:50 am 
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also most of the zod runewords need a rework.only a handful r used by players.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:14 am 
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i was just thinking the same as seshumaru , we need a zod helm a zod shield and perhaps rework the assassin zod word primarily removal of weakness ctc .

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:54 am 
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Sesshomaru wrote:
also most of the zod runewords need a rework.only a handful r used by players.


Sure, put together some thoughts. I will start a new thread with some things the balance team suggested that I haven't really looked at.

The only problem with most Zod words is that they end up being designed over the top. With regards to increasing difficulty, most people want difficulty increased in the end game and designing overpowered Zod words is counter to that design goal.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:42 am 
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have wands range been increased?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:45 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Sesshomaru wrote:
also most of the zod runewords need a rework.only a handful r used by players.


Sure, put together some thoughts. I will start a new thread with some things the balance team suggested that I haven't really looked at.

The only problem with most Zod words is that they end up being designed over the top. With regards to increasing difficulty, most people want difficulty increased in the end game and designing overpowered Zod words is counter to that design goal.



i can put some together,just have to take a a night or two after work to sit down and brainstorm some with balance and not to op

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:14 pm 
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what's the verdict on skillers is the proposal to make the inven 10 x 5 or remove skillers in general need to know so i can can make them acorrdinlly to the new patch.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:19 pm 
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removing an inventory row is fairly challenging as it involves editing some difficult to edit graphic files. So going with the removal of skillers in general and replacing them with soulstones is a much easier route and the one that I would vote for.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:19 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
have wands range been increased?


ya - that seems like a very sensible route as range 1 wpns are just too limited.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:16 pm 
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so +5 after you beat like 20 times baal (2-3 months)? good idea, never liked picking gems.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:02 pm 
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http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/ ... =7&t=56724

great inventory editor there

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:43 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=56724

great inventory editor there


thx - bookmarked.
personally though, skillers are the only inventory buster. Otherwise I think that people will just get annoyed with having a smaller inventory as it means less to pick up.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:24 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=56724

great inventory editor there


thx - bookmarked.
personally though, skillers are the only inventory buster. Otherwise I think that people will just get annoyed with having a smaller inventory as it means less to pick up.


ye the pickup thing and the comfort in a large inventory .. totally agree on that part .. maybe the skillers have been overkill for a long period but the big inventory has been a nice edition all of the time same with the big cube space, having the option to change armors or merc gear or rings before fight without having to go the stash all the time is really nice to the game play and dynamics in general imo .

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Quote:
maybe the skillers have been overkill for a long period
it's an end game feature that shouldn't be removed. It's like in other hns/rpgs you kill last boss then you unlock extra features - see borderlands and 69lvl cap while final boss drops shit and IT is 51lvl, but that's a modern game with a better item customization(class mods end at 55lvl while guns at 69).


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:08 am 
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Was simply removing the rerolling of grand (or all charms) still on the table?

It should be easy to remove rerolling charms. You would just need to make a few duplications of the original recipe, then change magic to correspond with magical torso, helm, weapon, shield, ring, amulet, belt, boot, and possibly small and large charms. Replace one of these on the original line for gems and magic item (I forget atm if there is a switch in there to disable the recipe...wow its been awhile since I looked at this stuff). Take a gander in that file. It's pretty self explanatory.

I think skill charms are fine if they are actually more difficult to obtain in mass. Characters filled out with ...res+life or life+man or mana+res small charms, or noes with fhr...etc...are just going to become the new 'overpowered' thing if skill charms are removed.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:10 am 

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Quote:
Repost from here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2036


After reading this I'm like wtf are you thinking? Some of the nerfs you propose are asinine at best. I've been playing HU for maybe 3 months total. Some Items, like IK set, nerfing res on complete set to 30 is lame. Doing things like this will all but mandate carrying an anihilus, which, I haven't even seen on here. There are those of us who play in smaller groups out of necessity, and these changes would cripple our ability to compete, let alone survive.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:39 am 
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kramuti, there is a boolian to enable/disable the recipes in cubemain, you are correct.

kwikster, the nerfs to gear are for nm and hell mostly. Currently, the gear upgrades you get in nm and hell, completely offset the increase in difficulty. Dropping 20 all res from an elite set is hardly game braking. You can make that up with 4 small charms.
What it will do, is force people to spend more points in str and dex in order to get equip on. Instead of having 5, 5, xxx, 5 stats due to the mass stats on equip at the min. Also, becoming essentially immune to an elemental damage boss by switching 2 rings isn't what I would call "strategic"

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:55 am 
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After reading this I'm thinking its all good and fine for all you people whom have been playing this mod since it was made but I for one haven't had the luxury of being in on the secret of the best "end game" items for each individual character. Hell I started playing this mod just before this last reset, I made a poison javazon (which most of you should know her since I've helped enough of you out killing hell Meph with her but yet no one offered to help me, I was stuck with her in A4 for 3 months before I was finally helped), a summon necro, elemental druid and poison necro. I have asked a countless number of people what the best end items for each of these characters were but alas I guess I'm not worthy to have that knowledge, I'm guessing that knowledge is only for the select few. Heck, I haven't even had the luxury of having ever tried to do nm or hell sammy because I don't have the right gear for my chars to enable me to get the items that she drops let alone able to do LoS but yet you are talking about making nm and hell harder and nerf the heck of the items that ppl can actually find such as IK set ..... tell me how is the average Joe supposed to be able to complete this mod if the changes you propose are made?

I tell you what, I suggest that if these changes you propose are made that you should also make a post detailing ALL of the best end game items for each individual character for all to know.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:37 am 

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Pure-Rage,
Some of the changes I maybe can agree with. Some not so much. It seems several items are being suggested as a way of pumping a melee char up substantially. Compare Blues idea of Rends and current ones HUGE change suggested. I see a certain classes gaining additional buffs, such as druids. Warrivs warder is tuned for druids, while Alma negra get nerfed. But, I digress I know too little on how difficult I already find this mod. By all means, make it harder. Let me walk thru nightmare ancients way with a lvl 95+ char and get 1 shot by rot walkers, or possibly ce'd by the shamans in outer steps.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:04 am 
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melee's need a boost since there will be very little crushing blow, thats obvious if you look at the items.

Walk through nm ancs way with a level 95 and get 1 shot by chargers??? Monster damage isn't being raised, what makes you think that? You will have to make a concious decision to switch to DAMAGE REDUCE gear before strolling through an area with high phys damage and switch to elemental defensive gear for elemental areas. Currently you can walk around with maxed absorbs, maxed damage reduction and maximum life in any area with a single set of gear...
You shouldn't be getting CE'd by shamans, use RIP, cold damage to shatter corpses, a holy weapon on switch to redeem them, your own CE (if you are a necro), kill the shamans first or simply drag the trash half a screen back and out of range of the CE.

Fox: you just need to look at the item page and pick what gear you want to use. If you try to kill and get owned by the fire damage, then switch to fire absorbs and stack your fire resist. It's not hard to gear a char or know what to use. general rules are, if you are a tank, get dr% and absorbs, if you are a caster get +% damage and pierce.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:49 am 

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after reading suggested changes I have one thing in mind: could you leave SP version untouched? just correct bugs if there are some. I think SP version of HU is challenging enough for one player.
Also, is it only me who think mana burn everywhere is not challenging but annoying?


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:38 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Walk through nm ancs way with a level 95 and get 1 shot by chargers??? Monster damage isn't being raised, what makes you think that? You will have to make a concious decision to switch to DAMAGE REDUCE gear before strolling through an area with high phys damage and switch to elemental defensive gear for elemental areas.


I never said monster dmg was being raised. Some of us do not have the luxury of having an inv full of switch gear for all occasions. As an example I have only once found a ber rune walking thru hell. My point though is, if you look at some higher end items, Blue is suggesting nerfing DR, str amd res. He's suggesting nerfing the res on a great many items including Um rune, diamonds. That in my opinion will make an already difficult mod nearly impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:51 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Fox: you just need to look at the item page and pick what gear you want to use. If you try to kill and get owned by the fire damage, then switch to fire absorbs and stack your fire resist. It's not hard to gear a char or know what to use. general rules are, if you are a tank, get dr% and absorbs, if you are a caster get +% damage and pierce.


With all do respect that is a load of codswallop, people who have been playing this mod since it came out always say that and refuse to share the information they have acquired on the best gear set up for characters to anyone else, why is that I wonder? perhaps its because having that advantage allows them to be able to get up the top of the ladder first? idk but it seems like its some sort of big secret no one else is allowed to know unless you happen to become rly good friends with them.

I for one aren't lucky enough to be able to have the luxury of finding all the different kinds of items to try out and test mainly because if I run alone I die because my gear sux or the drops stink and when I run with other people, I'm not fast enough to grab the items before some other greedy f*^k takes them from under me and I'm not about to trade my precious hr's for items I am not certain will be the "best end game gear".

I mean geez Louise, most of you guys have already figured out what the best end gear items are for each character, what's wrong with sharing that info with the rest of the community?

I mean for example in vanilla its a well known fact that the best end gear for a hdin is shako, enigma, hoto, hoz, arach, magefists, sandstorm treks or war travs (for mf), mara's, 1 x soj and 1 x rare fcr ring or 2 x soj's, anni, torch and pcombs; now someone had to have worked that set up out initially and shared with everyone else so what's wrong with doing the same here??

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:56 pm 
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I don't think there are any big "secret formulas" to playing well. Mostly it is a matter of patience, strategy and thinking things through. There generally isn't a mystery of what sort of items you should be using. When in doubt, try them out. Or ask intelligently phrased questions on the strategy forums. For an example:

Dumb question:
What is the best gear for a barb?

Good question:
I have looked at the item page and I am trying to distinguish the key differences between the lvl90 two handed weapons for a whirlwind barb. It seems to me like windhammer would be great for my barb, but I was curious what other people are using.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:16 pm 
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I really don't like the idea at all of getting rid of skillers.. My reason for this is Hybrid chars there is almost no possible way to make hybrids work without skill charms and by doing this will push everyone to have the same type of char ...

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:00 am 
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@ Fox:
There is no "set of items" that is perfect. it depends on your needs. Before the changes were made to make things much easier I was using A LEVEL 60 SET and an obedience battle hammer on my start of season pally right up until hell ancients so don't tell me you need "uber leet" gear to progress. Don't tell me the sky is purple when I can see it from my window...

Theres lots of guides on the forums and equip setups been posted for pretty much every char. questions like "whats the best gear" won't get you far. Talking about specific parts of the game you are struggling with and asking for gear ideas for that are more likely to be answered.

You were stuck in a4, equip 2 dwarf stars for diablo, a dwarf and raven frost for amon, 2 shocks for de sies and get sob from whisp/metalgrid for moloch. ALL those itemc can be found from hell leoric within 5-6 runs. Anything else you need can be found in kurast and from sarina. Run flayer jungle if you need runes etc. (high monster density and low life enemys = easy farming of runes) etc. It's all common sence.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:35 pm 
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@PureRage
lol? I'd love to see you try and solo kill Hell Moloch with a pure poison javazon. The rest of chaos was pretty much a walk in the park but Moloch was the one that kept me from advancing.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:39 pm 

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You were stuck in a4, equip 2 dwarf stars for diablo, a dwarf and raven frost for amon, 2 shocks for de sies and get sob from whisp/metalgrid for moloch.


LMAO!!! You're saying a full on poison java is going to break Molochs immunity? I want some of whatever you're smoking. Even a necro with high lower res is hard pressed to break his immunity. You talk about gear that is difficult to find at best. One prime example of difficult gear is SM set I have yet to find a single piece. Yet, almost everyone of you practically says it's a must have.

I happen to know the char being refered to. ANY poison immune renders it useless as tit's on a boar. There is no easy way for them to get enough lower res to make enough of a difference. That goes back to requiring and inventory full of switch gear and that is not in the spirit of team play now is it?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:27 pm 
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The rest of chaos was pretty much a walk in the park but Moloch was the one that kept me from advancing


So you think ALL of hell chaos sanctuary should be doable solo with 1 build? yeh that sounds like a tricky game...

Quote:
You talk about gear that is difficult to find at best. One prime example of difficult gear is SM set I have yet to find a single piece. Yet, almost everyone of you practically says it's a must have.

I've used mancers set on 1 char this season, there are many other options. I already told you I used orphans set until level 95 at the start of the season. I even used the disciple set on a sorc all the way to level 100 last season. I guess thats the kinda "leet" gear you are talking about though yeh? You seem to want to be able to solo the game from start to finish with OP equip and builds. Thats up to you but if you want an easy time then you should play bnet.

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I happen to know the char being refered to. ANY poison immune renders it useless as tit's on a boar. There is no easy way for them to get enough lower res to make enough of a difference. That goes back to requiring and inventory full of switch gear and that is not in the spirit of team play now is it?


whats not the spirit of team play is having a char that can solo everything. You think thats team based? Seriously???
Again, you are complaining because a char is getting raped by poison immunes. My old meteor sorc was dominated by fire immunes, but thts no reason to complain. Immunitys are there to encourage teams. You don't seem to be able to grasp that extremely simple concept though.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:50 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
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The rest of chaos was pretty much a walk in the park but Moloch was the one that kept me from advancing


So you think ALL of hell chaos sanctuary should be doable solo with 1 build? yeh that sounds like a tricky game...


You truely are a funny guy, where the hell did I say that chaos sanctuary should be doable solo? you were the one that said and I quote:

PureRage-DoD wrote:
You were stuck in a4, equip 2 dwarf stars for diablo, a dwarf and raven frost for amon, 2 shocks for de sies and get sob from whisp/metalgrid for moloch. ALL those itemc can be found from hell leoric within 5-6 runs. Anything else you need can be found in kurast and from sarina. Run flayer jungle if you need runes etc. (high monster density and low life enemys = easy farming of runes) etc. It's all common sence.


I was simply stating the reason I was stuck on a4 was because my poison java couldn't kill moloch and btw it would seem to me that you are not grasping what I am trying to say, I was saying that I was stuck in a4 because I didn't have a "team" I was simply trying make my way through the game the best way I could and try to join games that came up for the quests unfortunately when you join a public quest game, die and attempt to rejoin to get yr body back other people tend to take your spot away from you.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:57 pm 

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Actually, Pure, I am all about having a good team. What I'm against is people having to have a whole separate set of items in their inventory to counter such things as ele dmg. Needing to swap from high dr to high ele sorbs is rather bs IMO. A druid who has to rely on sorbs and or dr, needs to be deleted on the spot. Afterall CA is built in sorb and dr on it's own. Sorcs and necros, similar with their armors. What I'm trying to say is, Blue has suggested nerfing dr and sorbs on many items for the reasons you say you need them. I'm not against nerfing some things, but I feel res as one example need not be one. I hear everyone on hear talk about having "good teams", yet when it comes down to it, a new guy has virtually zero chance. He prays he gets lucky and some will either a) let him tag along b) offers to give him crap gear so he can play some c) he gets frustrated and quits. I got somewhat lucky n that I had a friend on here who helped me out a ton. Others, who discover the mod on their own, do not.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:58 pm 
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hey for that moloch you could get a3 merc, wisp ring or mgrid to cast sob, cast decoy alot, he's tough but low on hp. psn java with that CoS dagger can solo a4...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:04 pm 
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Steel wrote:
hey for that moloch you could get a3 merc, wisp ring or mgrid to cast sob, cast decoy alot, he's tough but low on hp. psn java with that CoS dagger can solo a4...


With all due respect, bullshit tried that combo didn't work with my pure poison java, once my merc was pwnt I was dead

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:18 pm 
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For once I have to agree here with Kev man wtf are you thinking with you being a psn char and tring to kill moloch=fail without a team.. And not tring to bust your bubble but there just somethings in this game that you will never solo ..Or if your looking into that style game play there is allways single player.. 8-)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:36 pm 
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Asteroth wrote:
For once I have to agree here with Kev man wtf are you thinking with you being a psn char and tring to kill moloch=fail without a team.. And not tring to bust your bubble but there just somethings in this game that you will never solo ..Or if your looking into that style game play there is allways single player.. 8-)


If you read what I said properly you would notice that I said
Quote:
I didn't have a "team" I was simply trying make my way through the game the best way I could and try to join games that came up for the quests unfortunately when you join a public quest game, die and attempt to rejoin to get yr body back other people tend to take your spot away from you.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:35 pm 
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@Fox: On the 1 hand you are saying "its too hard, nobody tells you what gear to use and I can't progress" (in essence). On the other hand you are saying "Hell chaos sanctuary was easy but I'm gonna complain when the boss that is immune to me kicks my ass".

It's one thing or another, it sounds like you find things easy enough as it is if you are soloing hell chaos sanctaury.

[quote=kwikster]Actually, Pure, I am all about having a good team. What I'm against is people having to have a whole separate set of items in their inventory to counter such things as ele dmg. Needing to swap from high dr to high ele sorbs is rather bs IMO.[/quote]
2 rings and a gemmed shield isn't what i'd call a big space killer. Neither is a skulled shield + shaftstop/string of ears for physical damage. Also, if its harder to max absorbs you might see more pally's running resist auras for bosses.

Having 1 set of gear cover every aspect of defense isn't strategic, it's obvious and boring.

Quote:
A druid who has to rely on sorbs and or dr, needs to be deleted on the spot.

actualy the comment above needs to be deleted on the spot. CA is ok for a windy against a couple of bosses. It has no resists so it gets owned by diabblo's flamewave. Poison completely ignores it and so does physical damage. If damage reduce and absorb isn't important then there is no problem with reducing its availability is there?

There is plenty resist items around. Considering you are able to have max all res in hell with equip that dropps at the end of normal (currently), I don't see a problem with it.

[quote]With all due respect, bullshit tried that combo didn't work with my pure poison java, once my merc was pwnt I was dead[/qoute]
spam decoy at him and press shift and 1,2,3 or 4 to feed your merc pots.
Use 1 pointed lightning bolt yourself to deal damage too.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:54 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
2 rings and a gemmed shield isn't what i'd call a big space killer. Neither is a skulled shield + shaftstop/string of ears for physical damage. Also, if its harder to max absorbs you might see more pally's running resist auras for bosses.
A pally running salvation only gets 10% sorb to fire, light and cold and it's an aura requiring him to give up something to get it. With a PROPER team there should be no need to switch out gear to counter every boss you fight. A truly balanced team compliments each others abilities and covers their inherent weaknesses. By swapping say from ravens to dwarfs you only change your sorb item. In reality you're not sacrificing anything.

Quote:
Having 1 set of gear cover every aspect of defense isn't strategic, it's obvious and boring.
I agree 100% with that. However, I feel being able to put on 2 rings to sorb enough to make it nearly impossible for ele dmg to hurt you isn't strategic either. To me, it removes the challenge of the fight, rendering it too easy. Sorbing is the cowards way out. Perhaps the cap needs to be reduced.

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Poison completely ignores it and so does physical damage. If damage reduce and absorb isn't important then there is no problem with reducing its availability is there?
If this happens, how will you survive? You have come to rely on such measures as your means of coping.

Quote:
There is plenty resist items around. Considering you are able to have max all res in hell with equip that dropps at the end of normal (currently), I don't see a problem with it.
I have no problems with res gear and even res stacking which only comes into play if conviction is used against you, btw.

As I am finished with this "discussion" I will say this. You sir are a hypocrite. You preach the mod is too easy, make it harder. You work diligently, to ensure you have all the right pieces for each boss fight i.e. dwarfs for Diablo. You go out of your way to reduce the the difficulty by using single spawns. I could continue. To make the game a true challenge, play without exploiting it. No harm in a well thought out char and gears to go along with it. But, having to carry multiple gear for each boss isn't how to do it. To me, 1 piece of any sorb should suffice, as it reduces dmg while leaving it challenging. It's people like you that has made Blue think of altering many of the items he has, to put the difficulty back into this mod. Strategic is playing this mod relatively untwinked. Therein is where the true challenge lies.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:08 pm 
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@Fox: On the 1 hand you are saying "its too hard, nobody tells you what gear to use and I can't progress" (in essence). On the other hand you are saying "Hell chaos sanctuary was easy but I'm gonna complain when the boss that is immune to me kicks my ass".

It's one thing or another, it sounds like you find things easy enough as it is if you are soloing hell chaos sanctaury.

Quote:
spam decoy at him and press shift and 1,2,3 or 4 to feed your merc pots.
Use 1 pointed lightning bolt yourself to deal damage too.


It would seem to me that you delight in taking what ppl say totally out of context so I will say this and then ignore what ever else you might have to say because in all honesty I really don't care what you have to say.
I tried asking peoples opinions/advice of what gear might help increase the poison damage of my javazon and to stay alive I even showed/told them the gear I was using or have tried, but every time I asked something ppl would just say "no one's ever made a poison javazon on HU so you'll just have to keep trying different things" hmm, now, I find that a bit hard to believe that in the 5 or so years this mod has been going for, that no one has ever made a poison javazon before.

I'm not complaining as you seem to think when a boss that's immune kicks my ass, I was merely stating that I have tried changing mercs, using sorb rings/amulets, kept "spaming" my (maxed) valkyrie and even used a full belt of potions in an attempt to keep my merc alive so the merc could kill it but unfortunately my belt will only hold 4 rows of 4 potions in each (16 potions total) [not sure how many yours holds but mine isn't infinite] so what will you suggest next, that I carry a full inventory of potions? my point was that I did not have a team at the time (you should try it then you will realize that usually tends to stop people from advancing in case you weren't aware)

Also, at the time I had put one point into lightning bolt, it helped with monsters but one point into a skill does sweet FA to bosses.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Couple quick points:

1. From a balance perspective, I am perfectly content to hear that your poison zon was unable to complete the quest on her own. In fact, I am more than content - I take that as a sign of good balance for a TEAM mod.

2. Against bosses, try going with decoy. Costs less mana and is easier to spam. Test it out a bit compared to valk and you will see the difference.

Finding teams to defeat quests is challenging, but it isn't something that is going to go away with any balance patch put out. Make friends early and help other people with quests and you will find parties that will help you out later on.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Fox1409 wrote:
Quote:
@Fox: On the 1 hand you are saying "its too hard, nobody tells you what gear to use and I can't progress" (in essence). On the other hand you are saying "Hell chaos sanctuary was easy but I'm gonna complain when the boss that is immune to me kicks my ass".

It's one thing or another, it sounds like you find things easy enough as it is if you are soloing hell chaos sanctaury.

Quote:
spam decoy at him and press shift and 1,2,3 or 4 to feed your merc pots.
Use 1 pointed lightning bolt yourself to deal damage too.


It would seem to me that you delight in taking what ppl say totally out of context so I will say this and then ignore what ever else you might have to say because in all honesty I really don't care what you have to say.
I tried asking peoples opinions/advice of what gear might help increase the poison damage of my javazon and to stay alive I even showed/told them the gear I was using or have tried, but every time I asked something ppl would just say "no one's ever made a poison javazon on HU so you'll just have to keep trying different things" hmm, now, I find that a bit hard to believe that in the 5 or so years this mod has been going for, that no one has ever made a poison javazon before.

I'm not complaining as you seem to think when a boss that's immune kicks my ass, I was merely stating that I have tried changing mercs, using sorb rings/amulets, kept "spaming" my (maxed) valkyrie and even used a full belt of potions in an attempt to keep my merc alive so the merc could kill it but unfortunately my belt will only hold 4 rows of 4 potions in each (16 potions total) [not sure how many yours holds but mine isn't infinite] so what will you suggest next, that I carry a full inventory of potions? my point was that I did not have a team at the time (you should try it then you will realize that usually tends to stop people from advancing in case you weren't aware)

Also, at the time I had put one point into lightning bolt, it helped with monsters but one point into a skill does sweet FA to bosses.



join hc we are a smaller group of pep and help each other out alot more than in sc. . I could show ya what all he used on his zon. And pos zon are nice used friends alot for los barb- darkness- and A&B runs and for alot of other pi bosses


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:21 am 
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@kwikster:
Why are you repeating what i've been sying about rings when you were complaining about the item adjustments in the first place? You are making no sense.

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As I am finished with this "discussion" I will say this. You sir are a hypocrite. You preach the mod is too easy, make it harder. You work diligently, to ensure you have all the right pieces for each boss fight i.e. dwarfs for Diablo. You go out of your way to reduce the the difficulty by using single spawns. I could continue. To make the game a true challenge, play without exploiting it. No harm in a well thought out char and gears to go along with it. But, having to carry multiple gear for each boss isn't how to do it. To me, 1 piece of any sorb should suffice, as it reduces dmg while leaving it challenging. It's people like you that has made Blue think of altering many of the items he has, to put the difficulty back into this mod. Strategic is playing this mod relatively untwinked. Therein is where the true challenge lies

I go out of my way to make it easier by using single spawns? You have never even played with me for 1 thing so I'd appreciate it if you kept your bull shit lies to yourself in future k?
I like how you are going on about me making it easy for myself etc. however. It wasn't long ago that we played a naked party with no equip. I guess thats exploiting though because we had more than 2 people in our team right?

Btw this below cracked me up at you say 1 thing then say the complete opposite in the very next sentence ^^
Quote:
It's people like you that has made Blue think of altering many of the items he has, to put the difficulty back into this mod.

Quote:
Strategic is playing this mod relatively untwinked. Therein is where the true challenge lies

because reducing the effectiveness of items will make it easier yeh?

@Fox: You seem to be annoyed because a couple of people you asked wouldn't spoon feed you information. Lots of people have poison zons, I know at least 3 people on hc tht would have provided the information you needed no problem. The only diff is, they didn't need someone to hold their hand, they just used what they could find (TheUtter played his from the day of the ladder reset).

[troll=kwikster + Fox1409]We are beating a dead horse here though. kwikster don't know what he is saying half the time and keeps switching his opinion with every second post and you are angry because you had to think for yourself.[/troll]

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:37 am 
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Hell is too easy.
10-20% damage buff in a4-5 would be great

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:45 pm 
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LmT wrote:
Hell is too easy.
10-20% damage buff in a4-5 would be great


Find it too easy? then perhaps you should try not ss'ing games and altering game mechanics

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:39 pm 
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Fox1409 wrote:
LmT wrote:
Hell is too easy.
10-20% damage buff in a4-5 would be great


Find it too easy? then perhaps you should try not ss'ing games and altering game mechanics


Altering game mechanics?

I four player spawn. And I don't alter game mechanics. The game is too easy. Others share this sentiment.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:27 pm 
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First thing is if you think this mod is hard now it was alot harder 2 years back when everything was set to 3 spawn.. Now i'm not all down with all the changes but I would like to see it go back to 3 spawn hell even 4 would be fun..An as for many of us ss ing thats just bullshit ..There is no secret about gear for chars ex.... :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:46 pm 
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i like the idea of 3-4 spawn req. Hell even with 3-4 spawn can do most of hell with 2 person team...prolly could do all of it with 8 person spawn ( 3 person team be all you need )

i don't like some other ideas but hey can't agree on everything.

i remember 6-8 person naked hc team making it through norm this season!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:16 pm 

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yea 3 or 4 spawn would be a good idea hell needs to be harder


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:18 am 

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Bob908 wrote:
i like the idea of 3-4 spawn req. Hell even with 3-4 spawn can do most of hell with 2 person team...prolly could do all of it with 8 person spawn ( 3 person team be all you need )

i don't like some other ideas but hey can't agree on everything.

i remember 6-8 person naked hc team making it through norm this season!

I could easily see an 8 person naked HC team for normal. Normal is admittedly easy. Mancer set it that way purposely. Like I said once before (my point was missed by some people ofc) is a good team compliments each others strengths, while being able to cover their inherent weaknesses. What I feel is a crock of shit, is people saying "you must have gear to cover the dr and sorb caps" in order to be effective. So, the proposed gear changes nerf those very things. To me, and how I like to play, maxing sorbs for a particular boss takes the challenge out of the equation. Real strategy involves, learning how to attack, move attack again, rinse and repeat. Try playing with your dr and sorbs on a self imposed cap of say 30 next boss fight. Don't single spawn anything. I'm betting it adds to the difficulty a bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:21 am 
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*Bait's Hook*


Quote:
What I feel is a crock of shit, is people saying "you must have gear to cover the dr and sorb caps" in order to be effective.

who is saying that exactly? (except you obviously). You keep going on about single spawning too like its some massive issue at the min. I don't remember single spawning anything and I don't know of many people who actually do single spawn. I assume that because you keep going on about it that you must be doing it...

What are you going on about self imposed caps and nerfig yourself for. If its so hard you shouldn't have to impose those caps on yourself should you? You should have a hard time no matter what gear you are using. That's the point here. You started out by saying it was too hard and nerfing gear will stop people like you being able to progress at all. Now, 2 pages on you are saying "i like to make it difficult for myself to keep it interesting." FYI the gear changes will impose such a cap so I don't know why you are crying like a baby about it.

I'm sure you can see my confusion here.

Edit: I'm just gonna sum up your posts from start to finish k?

Quote:
After reading this I'm like wtf are you thinking? Some of the nerfs you propose are asinine at best. I've been playing HU for maybe 3 months total. Some Items, like IK set, nerfing res on complete set to 30 is lame. Doing things like this will all but mandate carrying an anihilus, which, I haven't even seen on here. There are those of us who play in smaller groups out of necessity, and these changes would cripple our ability to compete, let alone survive.

Quote:
But, I digress I know too little on how difficult I already find this mod.By all means, make it harder. Let me walk thru nightmare ancients way with a lvl 95+ char and get 1 shot by rot walkers, or possibly ce'd by the shamans in outer steps.

Quote:
That in my opinion will make an already difficult mod nearly impossible.

Quote:
I agree 100% with that. However, I feel being able to put on 2 rings to sorb enough to make it nearly impossible for ele dmg to hurt you isn't strategic either. To me, it removes the challenge of the fight, rendering it too easy. Sorbing is the cowards way out.

Quote:
To me, 1 piece of any sorb should suffice,
[/quote]

mixed opinions much? you are finding it hard because you are using less absorb and dr% than is available. reducing it on items will mean everyone is on an even footing.

But hey, someone who has been playing for 3 months should know better than the people who have seen the mod change over the last 5 years and get easier in recent times right?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:22 am 
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kwikster - don't know if you want to insult someone or feel regret because you don't have a team playing by your rules, but stop saying to everyone not to single spawn bosses...
Quote:
Real strategy involves, learning how to attack, move attack again, rinse and repeat.
yeah, duck and cover in an old 2dimension game? no matter what you're abs/def/res would be if a stupid sorc used CBolts on boss you'd be dead in no time. I hope you didn't make your points by joining games with 99lvl char hardly killing norm baal.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
*Bait's Hook*
who is saying that exactly? (except you obviously). You keep going on about single spawning too like its some massive issue at the min. I don't remember single spawning anything and I don't know of many people who actually do single spawn. I assume that because you keep going on about it that you must be doing it...

If single spawning wasn't any kind of an issue, there would be zero need to raise the spawns back to 3-4 like many have said they were, now would there? If Blizz's game mechanics weren't so screwy (or perhaps the mods?) boss battle wouldn't need this type of adjustment. Example, and yes I have seen this with my own eyes, in chaos people will single spawn Amon, De Seis, and Moloch. Then once they were dead, SS Diablo. If mechanics were set up correctly, the bosses dmg, hp, etc would ramp up proportionately regardless of whether SS'd or not.

Quote:
equip 2 dwarf stars for diablo, a dwarf and raven frost for amon, 2 shocks for de sies and get sob from whisp/metalgrid for moloch. ALL those items can be found from hell leoric within 5-6 runs. Anything else you need can be found in kurast and from sarina. Run flayer jungle if you need runes etc. (high monster density and low life enemys = easy farming of runes) etc. It's all common sence.


I for one and how I play, is not going out of my way to make it overly easy. Unfortunately, for me at least, is I usually play with a small group usually 2-3 chars. As I have not yet found some of the items I know you are running, such as an anni, hell sammi charm, and likely a heart. No, I'm not asking for handouts either, I'm just stating facts. Areas like Sammi are difficult enough for a smaller team, changing things like spawning and gear adjusts is a band-aid fix. I never said I wanted to be able to solo the game, only said some things being proposed will render smaller teams useless in many cases.

Quote:
2 rings and a gemmed shield isn't what i'd call a big space killer. Neither is a skulled shield + shaftstop/string of ears for physical damage. Also, if its harder to max absorbs you might see more pally's running resist auras for bosses.

Having 1 set of gear cover every aspect of defense isn't strategic, it's obvious and boring.

Just because items are available, doesn't mean use them. A bigger challenge, for you who find it so easy is find ways to challenge yourself to make it hard. Buffing monsters, nerfing gear etc will discourage many newer players from staying with HU. It is true, I haven't spent 5 years perfecting my builds, gear and learning this mod. So that means, punish me as well, cuz I still find it difficult?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:51 pm 
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I knew my fishing skillz were still top notch ;)

Quote:
I for one and how I play, is not going out of my way to make it overly easy. Unfortunately, for me at least, is I usually play with a small group usually 2-3 chars. As I have not yet found some of the items I know you are running, such as an anni, hell sammi charm, and likely a heart. No, I'm not asking for handouts either, I'm just stating facts. Areas like Sammi are difficult enough for a smaller team, changing things like spawning and gear adjusts is a band-aid fix. I never said I wanted to be able to solo the game, only said some things being proposed will render smaller teams useless in many cases.


Yeh because I had an anni before I beat baal in a 3 man team.
I played through norm and nm in a 2 man team of a summy druid and a venger pally at the start of the season. we done norm and nm with just an amp wand from akara. We teamed up with a necro in act 2 hell and went on to 3 man everything in hell with gear from early nm and late norm. You seem to think there is some big conspiracy going on here or something. Do you believe in aliens etc. too?

Quote:
Just because items are available, doesn't mean use them. A bigger challenge, for you who find it so easy is find ways to challenge yourself to make it hard. Buffing monsters, nerfing gear etc will discourage many newer players from staying with HU. It is true, I haven't spent 5 years perfecting my builds, gear and learning this mod. So that means, punish me as well, cuz I still find it difficult?

You keep telling me I should make it harder for myself but how much do I need to nerf my chars JUST to find it challenging. I played at the ladder reset with nothing and I've played with no equip or charms too. FYI, i play diff builds every season, why make the same char every season?

The majority who find the mod are looking for something challenging and something that is hard. It's been much easier this season and lots of the people who have played here for a long time who like it difficult have stopped playing altogether.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:56 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
The majority who find the mod are looking for something challenging and something that is hard. It's been much easier this season and lots of the people who have played here for a long time who like it difficult have stopped playing altogether.


To play devil's advocate, there are a lot of new faces around here and they do really seem to be enjoying the more approachable Normal difficulty. There are also a few folks who have given up on this mod over time due to difficulties.

With that being said, the upcoming balance patch is going to make Hell harder, there is no way around that. Monsters will be hitting harder (due to a variety of gear reasons mostly) and some gear is going to be a little trickier to find which will force people to venture out of the safe cozey Tundra and in to some meaner places to find their goodies.

On the flipside, Normal difficulty will remain largely untouched and I am honestly worried that the buffed damage in items will make the Nightmare experience a little less nightmarish. To the more experienced, challenge hungry folks I recommend tossing diamonds in your gear, crafting some goodies and rollerskating through Normal ASAP to get to the good stuff of Hell butt kicking before your boredom kicks in.

One goal that I am fairly certain will be achieved is to lessen the disparity between the haves and the have nots which should reduce some of the forum angst. As much as the "magic gear" is a conspiracy in terms of the mod being easy, there is something to be said about players who craft 600% ED weapons compared to other players who go with the some what more modest uniques that you find now a days.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:40 pm 

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the one thing iam against is getting rid of skillers there are some builds that need the extra boost of damage from the skillers.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:57 pm 
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cool-player wrote:
the one thing iam against is getting rid of skillers there are some builds that need the extra boost of damage from the skillers.


Post them here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1877

and lets see how the damage ends up shaking out.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:15 am 
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Blue here is an idea instead of getting rid of skill gc's why not make there drop rates that of a soul shard or rarer.. Make them still possible to get but your going to grind your ass off to get them.. Only reason I came up with this is Hybrid builds there is no way for a good hybrid to work without these gc's.. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:01 am 

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Bob908 said in another post think whatever changes are made we have a solid reference to a week or so before reset if at all possible......) and i say this should be done so the community has a chance to read the changes being made and then they can say if they want the chances or not since mancer wants the general consensus of the community


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:12 am 
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id be happy for them to stay if they cant be rerolled, the spawn frequency of the skill tab mod is lowered and te level req is increased to 90

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:53 am 
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Quote:
if they cant be rerolled
Just change formula? problem now is if you do one cows run you have 200 gems to roll. Add jewel or maybe hammer to it or req 1 ms to roll.
Also 90lvl is too high, it's like a3 nm, make it maybe 85 so you could use them vs nm baal - ofc if you find them on hell, now you can't find them on nm. It's like forcing someone not to use his hell gear (nos/nigmas/sm etc.) while on nm. I know they will have higher lvl but still you can't balance everything.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:39 am 
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Asteroth wrote:
Blue here is an idea instead of getting rid of skill gc's why not make there drop rates that of a soul shard or rarer.. Make them still possible to get but your going to grind your ass off to get them..


This is a horrible idea.

Making items more rare is not an open doorway to making items more powerful. Following this path is only going to reward tedium and discourage team play (because people will be spending their time preparing to play rather than playing). Any solution that involves increasing the amount of time to get an item will always be a failure in balance because time is not a controllable variable.

The idea behind removing skillers is to control what sort of damage is possible. To be able to balance skills with some sort of reasonable accuracy. Not to make it so that if you spend 3 hours more playing an area that someone else, you can now accomplish something and they cannot.

If you want a game that rewards grind, head back to b.net - or hop over and start playing World of Warcraft. Blizzard happily uses time to balance their games because they want you to play their games. They want you to waste all of your time on innane silliness because there just isn't that much to do in the game. I don't. I personally don't want people to stand in the middle of Act1 town placing items in a cube and pressing a button 100 times. I want them to team up with other players and actually play the game.

Quote:
Bob908 said in another post think whatever changes are made we have a solid reference to a week or so before reset if at all possible


This has been the plan all along. I have been making changes via CritterKiller's website. As soon as I have the items all cross-checked for balance (swords, axes, maces, daggers, polearms, spears, scepters are done), I will load them up to the server so that people can see them while I implement them all to the txt files. That should take me easily a week to implement, so you should have plenty of time for feedback.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:05 pm 
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I am being quoted for a solid reference before reset. I just want to know what changed so I can make a viable plan to build a char. I know there are some hidden bonuses to skill points and it would be nice to be able to plan it is all (nothing like building a sin and then finding out fade has dr on it too :D ). At the end of the day we will all be on level playing ground as the game (rules) apply to everyone.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:31 pm 

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Balancing issue :
Light zons suck. If u have to choose between bowzon or java/spear zon wich u would choose?
Same with sin.. if u have to choose between fire or light trap sin .. wich would u choose?
They should be a bit more equal strong.
Same story with fire/cold ele druid :s
Would love to try out the weak ones if they get some buff next patch.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:11 am 
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Well its a really bad idea on getting rid of skill gc's in the first place when in fact 2 to 3 years back when the mod was 3 spawn no one asked for this much to be changed because the mod was quote hard.. Now that its easy everyone is bitching for balance and a patch to make it hard again.. So I say leave the gear alone thats not the problem with balance in the game its just needs to be reset to 3 spawn...Now wait its a better idea to give norm sammy charm zeal are you kinding me zeal oskill and making skill gc;s harder to get isn't..Your sence in balance to me needs to be rebalanced... :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:35 am 
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zeal oskill isn't game breaking though, it simply gives people who want to make an obscure build like a melee sorc or nec a half decent attack.

From looking through the txt files there seems to be a patern with what are overpowered builds with GC's. The tier 4 and 5 damages of these skills are usually quite jump in comparison to the "sucky" builds. Up until then most damages seem roughly equal. To sum up, it seems that skills put out about the same damage until skillers come into play then a elect few sky rocket and the others don't improve at such a steep rate.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:12 pm 

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I think we should take another look at mana burn. This ladder I made an ES/TK sorc and she was great about taking damage except when it came to mana burn. I feel like it isn't fare that bosses are able to drain your mana instantly when you have an ES sorc. It totally ruins the game and I am forced to sit out many battles because my sorc is useless. For example, I can't fight Hell Sammy because he mana burns; he doesn't even have to hit your character. And lets be honest mana burn isn't a crippling attack for most chars, correct me if I am wrong.
I suggest we take mana burn off bosses or make it harder for someone with a 10k mana bulb to lose all her mana instantly.
Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:55 pm 
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Hobo - I made new topic viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2371 please if you could post your opinion.
Edit: it's not your bad. I've made this topic after you posted. I should have long before but well... let's say things changed when Terry posted.


Last edited by Steel on Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:03 pm 

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thanks! my bad for not looking...


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:31 am 
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I'm simply saying that gear isn't the issue here it wasn't a issue when the game was 3 spawn so why is it now?.. Why cuz the game is easy that has nothing to do with gear or skill gc's it has to do with the diffaculty. If it was set back to 3 or 4 spawn you would see what i'm saying..And simply changeing every item in the game is far from the answer.. Now think if you change everything to make items weaker everyone at end game will look like clones of one and other ..
And sry zeal on norm sammy charm is just silly if your sorc wants to swing a sword around there is allways Valor..If your going to put something on it use full put Cannot be Frozen mod on it because its one of the best and most important mods to the game..
Another note on skill gc's -- the psn necro /// You think any caster build is going to get any great dmg without them even the rabies drood sucks without them.. So getting rid of them isn't the answer ether..Making them harder to find is.... plus it helps the economy with trading and such..
Make Purity rw for all class's not just the pally..


Plus 2 to skill
10-15 medi on equip
1-3 prayer ( pally)
1-3 fana ( pally)
1-3 blaze ( sorc)
1-3 lightning (sorc)
1-3 psn java (zon)
1-3 lightning fury ( zon )
1-3 fissure (drood)
1-3 Nado ( drood )
No skills for the necro there shields get skills on them
all the other known mods on this rw stays but this to me would be a huge benifit to all caster class's not just the pally pally has way to much to play with as these class's do not they just have head hunters or spirit ward as a shield...
Cheers... I'm sure the flames will come .. :))))))))))))))))))))))))))

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:06 am 
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Quote:
Plus 2 to skill
10-15 medi on equip
1-3 prayer ( pally)
1-3 fana ( pally)
1-3 blaze ( sorc)
1-3 lightning (sorc)
1-3 psn java (zon)
1-3 lightning fury ( zon )
1-3 fissure (drood)
1-3 Nado ( drood )
No skills for the necro there shields get skills on them
all the other known mods on this rw stays but this to me would be a huge benifit to all caster class's not just the pally pally has way to much to play with as these class's do not they just have head hunters or spirit ward as a shield...


7 mods max on a rw not including rune bonuses. That can't be done

Ps. CBF on a charm is OP, oskill zeal isn't

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:08 am 
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Give me a reason why having zeal on a charm is OP. I couldn't think of any abuses, so I gave it the green light. I am certainly willing to be persuaded otherwise though if you have a logical reason.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:25 pm 
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This is stretching it and I doubt this will ever be an issue since the sorceress has to make a lot of sacrifices, but Zeal enchant/lightning synergy sorc with dream using lightsabre (ctc level 33 chain lightning) might be "OP"

Obviously it CAN be viable but I dont think it'd be overpowered.

I cant imagine any other situations other than what I mentioned.

Also, asteroth. Power should be granted based on player skill, not items. Granting CBF on a charm is beyond silly if you claim it to be "most powerful."

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:59 pm 
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I recommended the Zeal oSkill specifically for the type of sorc LmT mentioned, except that my gear idea was different.

I made a sorc with IceBolt, Warmth, Enchant, TK, Hydra, FMastery and CMastery (none maxed) and used "Wonder" flail to cast a half synergized lvl 50 Blizz (6.5k before CMastery) and FOrb (1.5k per shard before CMastery). This sorc didn't work well (Chant was too low to contribute much, ARating was a little low, Attack speed very low), so I recommened the Zeal oSkill since I felt some atack skill would make her viable. I've experimented in the past with a Necro build using gear to proc stuff, and it failed for similar reasons.

The numbers for LMT's build are probably something like this:
CBolt, Lightning, LMastery, Chant, TK, Warmth (not 20 into each of course). Use Lightsaber for lvl 33 CLightning, and IK gloves, belt, and boots for lvl 40 CLightning. Level 33 CLightning does 325 dmg base (1.9k before Mastery), lvl 40 does 460dmg base (2.7k before Mastery). They each claim about 11-13 strikes, but in melee range it's unlikely to get more than two on one critter (just an educated guess). It's hard to say if this would outperform a regular Lightning sorc. I think this sorc would be very similar to the first setup I mentioned using "Wonder", so I don't think it would be overpowered.

There's probably a similar build involving "Ice" and BlackHades armor for a FrostNova variant. In that case the skills are FArmor, SArmor, CArmor, Chant, CMastery, TK. Level 50 FNova does 5.6k before Mastery, and lvl 25 does 1.5k, lvl 33 does 2.5k. Hard to say if this would outperform a regular FNova sorc.

For all the Masteries mentioned above, It might be hard to get them above level 15 due to weird gear choices. Level 15 doubles damage for cold and fire, and almost triples damage for lightning.

It would be neat to try the last two builds and see if there's anything I'm not thinking of (like the 25% mana leach and ITDefence on Lightsaber), but I don't think they'd be too strong, just a novel change. In general, I find the gear options for these builds hinder them more than expected (e.g. "Man, I wish I could put an Eth into this weapon for the ARating boost... oh right, it's a runeword.")


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:08 pm 
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As I said before why is it such a issue now when it wasn't when the game was 3 spawn..I havn't bean in favor of the patch sence it started becuase the only really issue and part of the game that Terry changed last Dec. Was unflagging tp's and lowerd the diffaculty spawn to make it easier for the new people playing the game..Did you ever think this mod infact is easy to the old timers is just that we bean here playing hu and know the game.. Nope blame it on the gear or blame it on this or that there is allways something to blame it on..For the ones that don't like the mod think its to easy and want to change everything about it I think I said this before go start your own mod and kindly leave hu alone its not broke and doesn't need to be fixed in anyway just the 3 spawn need to be put back in thats all plain and simple... And remmber 5 to 6 people don't speak for the hole community there are many that don't want this patch that won't be bothered with this forum..

Ohh btw I got a good laugh at how the norm sammy charm would be op with Cannot be Frozen mod on it .. Its lvl 60 how would it be op ... Zeal on that charm will only really benifit a couple builds maybe off the wall ones but still zeal would be useless on that charm period..And screwing around with items like norm sammy charm just says your not looking at real issue's with the mod and really there is only one ... :evil:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:55 pm 
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I wish you would send these messes to your english teacher before posting them here...

CBF isn't OP on a charm? seriously, you think a mod that you only need one source of for full benefit should be put on an easy to obtain charm?

Why are you complaining about it getting zeal anyway? you wouldn't be complaining if it wasn't getting changed and you say it's useless anyway so what's the problem?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:05 pm 

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In some ways i have to agree with Asteroth. Not the zeal charm one but the other stuff is right. When i read the changes my first idea was that there are some elite ppl who want new challanges and think about their own team while forget that such ppl who live in diff timezones will have hard times. Im sure Soul didnt made the changes in Z patch just for hes own fancy. I even remember that after the patch release he played aswell and enjoyed the community too, wich might drop after those changes, just to make the game more walky walky together in a big party.
Those ppl who still wanted to enjoy the game in an "old way" still did, even after the nerf. I remember when i joined a team wich set up the goal to go through everything and all acts without any item from our other chars or help from other ppl. Btw it failed :D we never finished it. Usually ppl make friends through the game and at the end what rly connects them is the tradeing society and help of each other. Wich might collaps if u put all those changes in. U cant remove the rotten parts of the society without harming the healthy ones.

Anyway thats my opinion.
About my english: if u gona rage, i gona ask u to learn Hungarian and then i can speak with u properly.. until that just respect that i put effort in to learn another language wich is completly different from my own.

*Edit* I forgot to add that im saying all this with 3 ladders behind my back aswell.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:10 pm 
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Quote:
About my english: if u gona rage, i gona ask u to learn Hungarian and then i can speak with u properly.. until that just respect that i put effort in to learn another language wich is completly different from my own.


your English is fine, especilly considering it's not your native language. You have an excuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:30 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
zeal oskill isn't game breaking though, it simply gives people who want to make an obscure build like a melee sorc or nec a half decent attack.

The perhaps adding zeal as an oskill on a class item for those classes is a better alternative. I can see it now... a melee nec using zeal with a oblivion for example. The 40% life and mana leech would heal him as fast as he hits.

If they're going to nerf many items, why add potency to another? Seems counter-intuitive to me. I would love to see a cap on crafted and rare items ed to say 550% max. The idea of something like and eth 600+ed colossus crossbow is overpowered. Interested to see how many runewords get altered as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:40 am 
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Lets not do to anything drastic for this patch... I am not looking to re-invent hell unleashed... Balancing issues do not require a dramatic shift of the game... I have been recieving a lot of complaints about some of the proposed changes, such as nerfing CB and the removal of skillers... Yes HU should be harder in hell difficulty, but we must be careful to not render certain templates useless... You don't need to make bosses way stronger and at the same time nerf CB and remove skiller runes... Maybe increase the level of skillers... But this patch is meant to deal with some balancing issues, not shift the entire mod into something radically extreme from what it is now.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:43 am 

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I'm sure that's a relief to hear for many players. I'm all for small tweaks but huge gameplay changes like many I've seen proposed are going to change the core HU we all love.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:52 am 
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Quote:
Maybe increase the level of skillers...

Increase Level to 85+ and remove rolling for them, formula that controlls them only applies to jewels/rings/amu but i doubt anyone roll magic jewellery


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:25 am 

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drrod wrote:
I'm sure that's a relief to hear for many players. I'm all for small tweaks but huge gameplay changes like many I've seen proposed are going to change the core HU we all love.


Well said.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:24 am 

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Soulmancer wrote:
Lets not do to anything drastic for this patch... I am not looking to re-invent hell unleashed... Balancing issues do not require a dramatic shift of the game... I have been recieving a lot of complaints about some of the proposed changes, such as nerfing CB and the removal of skillers... Yes HU should be harder in hell difficulty, but we must be careful to not render certain templates useless... You don't need to make bosses way stronger and at the same time nerf CB and remove skiller runes... Maybe increase the level of skillers... But this patch is meant to deal with some balancing issues, not shift the entire mod into something radically extreme from what it is now.

/signed

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:18 am 
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Thank god.... Thanks so much for your input Terry...I love this mod and don't want to see it get all messed up.. I would say make hell set to 3 or 4 spawn diffaculty and maybe reflag tps again.
My point about the norm sammy charm is this if you can get the frozen mod by lvl 8 how the hell is it op at lvl 60... Again Kev you make no sence sry ..

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:38 am 
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Fact is, you need to sacrifice an equip slot for that, giving it out freely on a charm that takes up a single slot in the inventory is a completely diff story.

Also, you can't make 1 difficulty a 3 or 4 player spwn and another difficulty a 2 player spawn, thats not how the game engine works. It's a hard code that has a global effect.

I don't expect anything I say to make sence to you, your IQ is lower than a snakes penis.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Soulmancer wrote:
Lets not do to anything drastic for this patch... I am not looking to re-invent hell unleashed... Balancing issues do not require a dramatic shift of the game... I have been recieving a lot of complaints about some of the proposed changes, such as nerfing CB and the removal of skillers... Yes HU should be harder in hell difficulty, but we must be careful to not render certain templates useless... You don't need to make bosses way stronger and at the same time nerf CB and remove skiller runes... Maybe increase the level of skillers... But this patch is meant to deal with some balancing issues, not shift the entire mod into something radically extreme from what it is now.


No problem.

I will stop working on the balance patch then and let folks proceed the way they want. At this point in time though I am not going to rework the items again, so someone else is welcome to do that.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:51 pm 
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Guess that means all vita builds and str bugging is back?Oh well.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:02 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Guess that means all vita builds and str bugging is back?Oh well.

there is always the pure energy/es sorc. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:18 pm 
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so when patch's coming? I want to be prepared to get rushed, using leap 'feature' and sell nec's heart in first 2 weeks.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Well I doubt the items need a huge re-work. I'm not sure what changes have been made... The reduced str on items is fine. "some" cb nerfage is also fine to make it more difficult to get high CB... The resistance changes sound great. Maybe make skillers level 90...

The patch is suppose to be more of a community consensus and the best way that can be reached is trying to find some middle ground on the changes, rather then an extreme shift. Something I've come to realize over the years is HU is very sensative to any balancing changes, smaller more controlled changes seem to work out better. I imagine most of the item work you've down is prolly all good, maybe make some slight adjustments if you need to.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:45 pm 
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The patch is suppose to be more of a community consensus and the best way that can be reached is trying to find some middle ground on the changes, rather then an extreme shift.
There is the problem, to me ofc, changes aren't extreme, they are only to nerf abusive chars like psn necs, smiters, summoners, etc. etc. leaving behind casters or uncommon builds. And you can't do this w/o tweaking already godly buffed gear giving +250 res, max dr%, 20k hp (with oak/bo). All ppl cry about dev team because they don't want to use +16all res gcs instead of one skiller, or put more str, play something different than tundra, or they play in priv games and say they suck bcos can't solo wsk. My opinion.

Btw. Middle ground - another problem, ppl crying dont have any suggestions other than leaving it be.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Soulmancer wrote:
I'm not sure what changes have been made..


Its all pretty much on the pages I have posted up. Everything has been very public. Only the weapons haven't been posted up yet.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:30 pm 
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Basic paradigms:

Experienced players want a challenge with their end game builds. Removing skillers, reducing end game resists and reducing strength will make the end game more challenging as it will end up with monsters that hit a lot harder and builds that don't simply dominate boss battles (meteor sorcs, psn necros, etc). It also provides a great deal of end game content rather than endless quests for more skillers (check the trade forums, all that end game characters do is pass skillers back and forth)

New members to the community want a game that is challenging and accessible. This means normal difficulty that eases them in to what HU is all about and a Nightmare that is a bit more challenging. The difference in what the new players and the experienced players have in terms of items will be reduced by [a] removing the huge skiller differential that comes in to play when skillers are available [b] buffing unique items to put them more on par with the socketted crafts/rares that experienced players. This should result in a mod where we don't have some people complaining about how easy the mod is (because they are utilizing a 600% ED weapon and stacked resists) and other people just barely treading water (because they are utilizing a weapon that does a fraction of the damage).

The difficulty will also scale up with strength requirements. In norm/early NM you should be able to get by with fairly minimal strength and still have a large life bulb. As you move towards Hell you need to make a decision of going with more life (pure vit build) which will keep you safer, or more strength which will make your character have less life but able to access the more powerful elite weapons. I heard from a number of experienced players that they wanted that adrenaline feel of having powerful items but being on the fringe of death as monsters could really dent them.

There is also some diversification to the crafting system so that the only items crafted aren't blood rings (for godly strength boost + life), death weapons and elemental rings.

With all of this in place, it is likely that Hell is going to be extremely difficult for most players and only a handful in the community will be able to cruise through it. Some areas (LOS, nihla, baal quest) may even become impossible for HC and doable by SC only with lots of death. I heard that people wanted this mod challenging again - and this WILL make it challenging. For some folks, they may want to stick with Norm/NM and simply not be ready for Hell.

These are large changes, but they are the changes that I have heard the community ask for. I have already sunk 30-50 hours in to these balance adjustments and it is going to continue to require a similar amount of time, so I would just as soon know now if we are moving that direction or not.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:38 pm 
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One point i`ll make is about crushing blow. If relay, alexius and al see this post they will confirm it too I'm sure.

I've been playing a mod whare cb is drastically low on equip. 5% would be about the limit you could get on any 1 char if you devoted yourself to it. It works really well. You see a crushing blow and you have a "OOO" moment instead of it just being the norm to remove a massive chunk of hp every third attack. Even with 1-2% on the char, it is still very effective. I know some people are concerned about it but they (for the most part) haven't even tested these things.

The item changes won't effect normal difficulty at all for the most part, they will make nm tricky (currently its easier than normal) and hell harder.
Some people are complaining simply because they couldn't post in a particular forum in order to keep things neat and tidy. (see this thread, 12 pages long and has only been here for a week or so)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:55 pm 

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skillers lvl 90 fine


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:03 pm 
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Kev you can keep your insults man I didn't insult your ass so back off...Saying CbF mod is op at lvl 60 is silly when its on many items at that lvl and higher... Anyways i'm not going to sit here and fight with you again so plz just back off..

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:15 pm 

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but there is a lot of the community that don't want major change and don't like it like mancer said that is all i have heard from players the last 3 days that the changes are just to majorand most of the dev team changes are just to major


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:24 pm 
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I've heard from guy who joined 3months ago, never killed any boss on hell w/o rush, yet he is in a5 farming gear, that this mod is hard. You can't always do what ppl say. I'm not saying I'm good, prolly i'm a noob compared to these guys here, but lol. I bet they know wtf, it's not like they do this to make us angry, lol.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:27 pm 

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most of the players i heard from are players that have been here atleast a season or2 seasons or more


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:41 pm 
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Asteroth wrote:
Kev you can keep your insults man I didn't insult your ass so back off...Saying CbF mod is op at lvl 60 is silly when its on many items at that lvl and higher... Anyways i'm not going to sit here and fight with you again so plz just back off..


again, you are missing the point. Putting the mod on a charm means NO item needs it after level 60. Good thing or bad?

CBF is on ITEMS because you need to sacrifice an item slot to attain it. Shit how easy do you want it? Maybe it should have 100% pierce all elements and 50%cb too yeh?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:17 pm 
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The only changes i want for the new patch :
-remove act 1 physical merc , is lame
-remove 60% of +strength properties on all items level 80+
-remove the GC skillers
-make players 4 minimum on all difficulties
-characters who have completed normal and nightmare diffculty cannot enter normal/nightmare games, unless the game is create by a char who is in hell
-uniques level 95+ drop only in wsk3 + or in los

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:30 pm 
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oh shit the plot thickens

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:17 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Fact is, you need to sacrifice an equip slot for that, giving it out freely on a charm that takes up a single slot in the inventory is a completely diff story.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
again, you are missing the point. Putting the mod on a charm means NO item needs it after level 60. Good thing or bad?

CBF is on ITEMS because you need to sacrifice an item slot to attain it. Shit how easy do you want it? Maybe it should have 100% pierce all elements and 50%cb too yeh?
Waver much there man? How does it differ from adding zeal to norm sammi charm? Same principal applies in both cases. I see someone here who wants things his way. Your attitude is fuck the masses who may not want huge changes. There are a few items both unique and runewords with zeal as an oskill. I see no difference here.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:17 pm 
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CBF is a strong mod, a MELEE attack oskill isn't. The problem with the unique (wizzy) is it has a terrible range and even worse durability (see the thread with the guy carrying 8-10 of them in the cube to switch between to get from 1 wp to another). The runeword isn't bad but it's on a weapon (1: a melee sorc is better using normal attack with a proc weapon and 2: a melee nec won't use it because it's not a wand and as a result he gets no benefit from the wand mastery on bone armor and pois strike)

Have you made either of those builds here? If you know so much about it then share your opinions on them and explain just how well they performed. The people who have actually played those builds came to the conclusion that having no actual melee skill is what kills the builds, so an off-equip zeal oskill was put forward as a solution.

If you don't know what you are talking about, it's best to say nothing as you just look like an idiot.

also, these "masses" you speak of who don't want any changes are offset by "masses" who do want changes. Stop blaming everyone because you can't handle the mod in it's current easy mode form. k thnx bai ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:17 pm 
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cbf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. zeal i dont see where there is an argument for this.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:31 pm 
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CBF gives no damage so it's underpowered... didn't you know that offense is 100X better than any form of defense?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:51 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
CBF is a strong mod, a MELEE attack oskill isn't.

If you don't know what you are talking about, it's best to say nothing as you just look like an idiot.

also, these "masses" you speak of who don't want any changes are offset by "masses" who do want changes. Stop blaming everyone because you can't handle the mod in it's current easy mode form. k thnx bai ;)
Ah yes, can't think of an intelligent answer, you throw insults. You "claim" you want this oskill for an obscure build, truth be told that would be very highly unlikely. You're trying to bully those who differ in opinions into relenting. Frankly, when Mancer posted saying "I have been recieving a lot of complaints about some of the proposed changes, such as nerfing CB and the removal of skillers... Yes HU should be harder in hell difficulty, but we must be careful to not render certain templates useless" Sounds like enough other people gave him cause to respond. Highly likely, they choose not to voice their opinions here. Probably in fear of retribution from the almighty PureRage-DOD. You speak of a lot of people sharing your views, yet you are the biggest contributor of this bilge-water.

I will say this, a re-balance of the mod is welcomed, re-inventing HU to suit a select few in this community is not. A few well placed changes are all that is necessary, not a full scale overhaul. When looking at the proposed ideas put forth it's just that, a major re-tooling of HU. My humble opinion, choose one or the other, make it harder by resetting the spawns back to 4 spawn or by major gear adjustments. Doing both at the same time is a recipe for failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:34 am 
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HU is a team mod. spawns at 4 should have little to no effect on actual gameplay.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:52 am 
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if you want to give norm sammy charm CBF give it also curse immune, I don't see why ppl should adjust their equipment if they want to be completely immune to the worst status early.
/irony?!|
Quote:
You speak of a lot of people sharing your views, yet you are the biggest contributor of this bilge-water.
Yet no one shares your point of view.
Quote:
My humble opinion, choose one or the other, make it harder by resetting the spawns back to 4 spawn or by major gear adjustments.
Post your major gear adjustments if you don't like as they are proposed now.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:08 pm 
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Oh, ofcourse, i forgot that it as only me who suggested giving the charm zeal. I also forgot tht zeal will overpower most builds because it's a melee attack. Everyone knows that zeal is the most OP skill in the game right?

You kid, have no clue what you are talking about. You've been here for what, 3 months? yet you know better than the people who have played the builds in question and know why they just don't work.

One last thing. People who are happy about stuff are alot less vocal about it than people who are unhappy about it. Just because a couple of people complained don't mean that nobody is happy about it. Just look at the "remove skillers" poll. All I have seen from people is "don't remove them it will ruin the game" yet the number of votes for yes is > than the number who voted no. A crying baby makes a lot more noise than a content one.

You seem to think that the only things that are being done are things that I have suggested. I've suggested very little actually. I simply done the proposed skill changes as they were made. Now stfu and gtfo, every post you make is making you look more and more stupid. I know that you are still butt hurt that I disagreed with you but thats just how it is. Deal with it. If you don't want a hard game, there is always vanilla d2, pretty much any other d2 mod or the sims :P

There are alot more easy mods then there are hard ones. This is one of the only ones that WAS something of a challenge. Leaving it as easy as it is now means there are no hard mods left and people who want a hard mod have nothing. great.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:17 pm 

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why not drop the tking away of skillers mancer has already said they stay the only thing he has said is he may change them to lvl 90 so why keep beating a dead horse that part has been desided....


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:38 pm 
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raising the level req by 10 won't have any impact though, chars don't usually get many until after level 90 anyway. If the reroll recipe as removed then that would be another story though.

The fact you can get +25 skills from just charms is what throws things into turmoil. I wonder how many skillers were actually found this season compared to how many were rerolled for 3 pgems and 30k gold.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:56 pm 

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your missing the point mancer has said NO to Removing Skillers


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:06 pm 
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You are talking about skillers and skillers and skillers.But what you think about the things that ruins the difficulty in hu : retarded act 1 physical mercs with rare xbows 511%ed + 4*60% ed and holy armour with 4 uber emeralds and games like : baba level 27,ama level 27,sor level 27,dudu level 27 and dudu level 100.Some players called these games :''party''. Retarded party i say.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:10 pm 
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RAMMSTEIN wrote:
games like : baba level 27,ama level 27,sor level 27,dudu level 27 and dudu level 100.Some players called these games :''party''. Retarded party i say.


quote of the year 2010 :lol:

Quote:
your missing the point mancer has said NO to Removing Skillers


Actually he said a comunity driven patch would be good. and you should look here before you go any further

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Soulmancer wrote:
I have been recieving a lot of complaints about some of the proposed changes, such as nerfing CB and the removal of skillers

Soulmancer wrote:
Maybe make skillers level 90...

Soulmancer wrote:
You don't need to make bosses way stronger and at the same time nerf CB and remove skiller runes... Maybe increase the level of skiller
To me it doesn't mean NO. If you could balance some build then gcs wouldn't be needed.But now it's completely unbalanced when, for some ultimate war machine, poison nec kills every boss with gcs, while other builds with 18 can't even stand near him. If you tell me I need skillers to kill Meph/Diablo I refuse to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:12 pm 

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I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, I'm against changes. What I am against, is major changes in many areas all at the same time. For example major buffing of melee damage, while at the same time nerfing many late game uniques and sets, and also making all bosses tougher. I like the challenge of playing here, however, do not feel the major overhaul proposed is the ultimate answer.

I wish to ask a few questions, why did the spawns get reduced from 4 back to 2 in the first place? Did gear get stronger at the same time? Did new runewords suddenly come online that were(are?) OP? You see my confusion here, looking back through the forums, I see many things, balance is always an issue. No matter who determines how, why, when and where changes are made, there is no single answer that will satisfy everyone involved. That is the conundrum that faces every single version of Diablo, from vanilla to HU. There is now magic formula, no magic set of items. Perhaps the answer lies somewhere in between proposed changes and status quo.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:32 pm 
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Quote:
I wish to ask a few questions, why did the spawns get reduced from 4 back to 2 in the first place? Did gear get stronger at the same time?

1) from 3 to 2. Explanation:
Quote:
Monsters HP growth based on # of players in the gane has been changed in the (Full) Multiplayer addition
values are now 1p = 300% 2p = 300% 3p = 300% 4p = 300% 5p = 475% 6p = 550% 7p = 575% 8p = 600% this has been done
to fix the widely used Single Spawning exploit.
300% seems like 3x ppl unless you start from 50% which is wrong on HU. Then:
Quote:
1.21x

-Minimum number of player spawn is now 2 instead of 3

2) read forums more carefully
3) yes, adding +1 to lenymo, boosting early sets(angelic, hsarus), changing few uniqs like heaven's garb was for newcomers to have less pain time here. Idea was ok and it's staying but talking here is about end game.
4)
Quote:
Perhaps the answer lies somewhere in between proposed changes and status quo.
Meaning you want compare changes of hard working guys to not doing anything cunts?


Last edited by Steel on Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:34 pm 
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The buff to melees weapons is there because crushing blow will be lower. alot of melee's are completely reliant on crushing blow so a minor damage buff helps to offset the reduction in crushing blow. The issue with CB is that it just destroys bosses until they are around 25% hp remaining. It only takes 20 or so secs with a cb build to get the boss that low. After cb has done its ork then the casters DPS overtakes it. The DPS builds only have to deal with the last 25% of boss hp though so the fight is over really fast. I had 30%cb and 700 or less smite damage and killed all hell bosses as the only source of damage in our 3 man team at the start of the season. Just 2 support builds and a cb build dominate everything)

Actually i'm not sure whare the damage buff for melee's is to be honest, I seen weak uniques have been helped out abit with better damage but they still don't do more damage than current crafts (they are about even now).

No idea why the spawn was reduced. It was originally increased to 3 and then single spawning was still going on, terry got mad and increased it to 4. Then this patch I guess he figured he should set it back lower but it was abused instantly again... We are deff on the same page with this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:58 pm 

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Steel wrote:
Meaning you want compare changes of hard working guys to not doing anything cunts?

I for one at least have worked my ass off to get my gear, except for a few early game items. Can't speak for others. As I only use gear I work for, some changes will have a larger impact on me and my chars.

@PureRage I understand CB and it's effects very well. Been playind vanilla since it was new. I do understand when cb is reduced there needs be a counter. By the same token, being able to kill hell bosses with a smiter and 2 support chars makes things too easy, I agree. Like I'm trying to get people to consider, make the changes somewhere in the middle of proposed and current areas. Perhaps another answer, for example, instead of nerfing sorbs on say dwarf, lower the cap to say 25% max sorb to any element. Possibly reduce the max dr cap to say 30%. Both would achieve similar things. Your thoughts on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:29 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
I wish to ask a few questions, why did the spawns get reduced from 4 back to 2 in the first place?


There were 2 driving forces for the spawns:

1. boss spawns. Certain players were "single spawning" bosses by having everyone in the party leave the game and rejoin and then overcoming the quests in a much easier fashion. To level the playing field, the spawn was simply reduced to lessen the impact of this exploit. Now players all have a similar experience whether they choose to single spawn or not.

2. tedium with trash. the spawn had a very large impact on "super-trash" monsters like wyrms and such. These fellas had a lot of hit points, but didn't do a lot of damage, so you sat around and tediously dealt with a pack of champion wyrms without much real risk to yourself. The feedback from several players was that these boss packs were more time consuming than the boss battles. Reducing the spawn dealt with that.

This did correspond to a some what more easier hell experience since weapons did not get diminished in strength.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
The buff to melees weapons is there because crushing blow will be lower. alot of melee's are completely reliant on crushing blow so a minor damage buff helps to offset the reduction in crushing blow.


Given the enormous amount of dmg that CB does, I don't think there is a buff that would compensate for it. CB is being reduced as a way to increase difficulty and because the community voted in favor of doing it - no real other reason.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Actually i'm not sure whare the damage buff for melee's is to be honest, I seen weak uniques have been helped out abit with better damage but they still don't do more damage than current crafts (they are about even now).


This is accurate. I have proposed buffs to weapons just to bring them on par with crafts. I was going to post up the weapons this weekend, but now that I know nothing "drastic" is planned, I didn't bother doing any work on HU this weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:30 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
Steel wrote:
Meaning you want compare changes of hard working guys to not doing anything cunts?

I for one at least have worked my ass off to get my gear, except for a few early game items. Can't speak for others. As I only use gear I work for, some changes will have a larger impact on me and my chars.


i believe he is referring to people who have actually put hours in to building a balance patch (myself & purerage) compared to the people who haven't done anything but complain about it (Asteroth).

I encourage Asteroth to actually design a balance patch and then see how he feels about people who spend 1-2 minutes writing a post and complaining about their hours worth of work

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Just remember, small changes, consensus based changes. As I said I have been modding HU for years and even slight changes in balancing can cause large sways in difficulty... I don't want Hell difficulty to be too casual, but it shouldn't be frustratingly extreme. I am more interested in striking a proper balance for gameplay and this can be difficult to do. The changes will have to be tested prior to the server reset.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:50 pm 

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When these changes come who will be involved in testing? Just the dev team or will other have a chance to participate as well? I personally would welcome an opportunity to work with others and offer suggestions. I know I'm still rather new to HU, but I'm hardly a noob as a player.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:07 pm 
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It's a crime that current items dont get changed when a patch is updated. That would be the ideal solution. Simply update the patch with no reset while there are chars spread through the game so people can try stuff out before a reset.

Any testing should involve everyone and should be a short ladder with the treasureclass adjusted so there is no need to hunt for items while it is being tested. I'm sure this was done a couple of years back.

The other option is a small number of groups test on a test realm that one of the test group would host, an equal number of people from both sides of the spectrum would play a short ladder there. The testers would have to be able to dedicate a decent amount of time to the test so progres would be swift and testing done is a timely fassion.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Soulmancer wrote:
Just remember, small changes, consensus based changes.


I think we need a more specific answer than that. To simplify things, here is a multiple choice question:

(A) All item adjustments as posted on blue.arimyth.com, skillers removed, crushing blow reduced, skill changes as posted in this thread

(B) All item adjustments as posted on blue.arimyth.com, skillers removed, crushing blow stays at current level, skill changes as posted in this thread

(C) All item adjustments as posted on blue.arimyth.com, skillers removed, crushing blow reduced, no skill changes.

(D) Skill charms remain, someone else re-balances items, skill changes as posted in this thread

(E) Skill charms remain, no item changes, skill changes as posted in this thread

I think that covers all the options, but feel free to point out any that I missed. One thing that isn't an option though, is I won't rebalance the items that I have already balanced around a no-skill charm game.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:57 pm 

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mancer said this:::Maybe increase the level of skillers... not get rid of them


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:23 pm 

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Not too eager to get into the skillers debate. But isnt an alternative approach capping skill levels? This would allow skillers to peacefully exist, and some would use more skillers to make up for gear skills others go all in gear skills. This would also be nice for any cross-tree builds as they could focus gear into one tab and use skill charms to weigh up the other
Afaik they dont have to be the same for each skill, and getting info on skill levels before skillers should be easy enough, the only decision to make is should cap be above what gear can give and if so how much higher.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:00 pm 

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Been thinking about skillers as well trying to think on how it could be addressed. One thing comes to mind, certain builds, such as meteor sorcs, get huge dps compared to other builds. Especially when stacking meteors. While some builds get a decent bang for the buck, but no where near op. Perhaps something like diminishing returns on points spent/added by skillers is an option. Possibly a linear reduction on certain skills is needed to offset the end game skiller effect. Puts on flame proof suit.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:18 am 
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Okay Kev so your saying put a mod on a charm that takes one a time to get and that only a small amout of builds can benifit from ya thats smart...I would rather see new players make that run and get better gear for there hard work then them going all that way and saying . Holy shit this charm sucks ass why did I waist my time..All in all it makes people say to there freinds hay man you need to play this mod they have some killer rewords for there eforts.. To me that brings more players and make this mod grow and if you can't see this then just plz stop with anything your doing cuz your no good for this mods future.. Bogus input is not needed. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:27 am 
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Quote:
Okay Kev so your saying put a mod on a charm that takes one a time to get and that only a small amout of builds can benifit from ya thats smart

sorry, I don't speak retard, try again.

Quote:
Holy shit this charm sucks ass why did I waist my time

10% exp is already on it, dumb shit. You have no complaints about it in its current form so wtf is your problem with putting a combat oskill on it. You are just arguing for the sake of it now to try to save face. You fail.

Quote:
Bogus input is not needed.

I couldn't agree more, so why are you still posting? Time for you to go back to 1st grade English before you turn everyones brain to mush with that nonsensical drivel.

Taken from the Soth-English Dictionary, without permission but with the best of intentions.

benifit = benefit
rewords = rewards
why did I waist my time = why did I waste my time
freinds = friends
hay = hey
eforts = effort

Ps. you don't use a full stop to start speech you use a "

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:54 pm 

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DoD u British right? just caus u rly feel like my british mates.. mocking and saying the last word allways :) Not talking about the idea of "butchery" of the English language, wich i rly wana argue with.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:54 pm 
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yup, thats pretty accurate

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:41 pm 

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this is what i mean when i say why players won't come to the forums..... they don'y want to deal with this kinda crap


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:43 pm 
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i see no item changes posted on blue.arimyth.com?
perhaps im missing something but i dont see an items tab.
if a max level cap on skills can be made I would say that is the best option next to removing skillers flat out. Allows them to still be moderately easy to get and there would b more for trade if having 10 was pointless cause you were already at the skill level cap. since some skills getting huge buffs from + lvls is the issue why not stop the ability to get lvl 60 skills?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:46 pm 
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didn't link to it off the site - but here is a direct link: http://blue.arimyth.com/helms.html

then use the navigation there. Not everything is there, just the things that I have considered finalized.

incidentally, when you can get +14 (or even +10) skills from your inventory, it pretty much makes other gear look shabby. I mean the lvl95 sorc orb only gets +3 to skills.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:47 pm 
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cool-player wrote:
this is what i mean when i say why players won't come to the forums..... they don'y want to deal with this kinda crap

nobody wants to come to the forums to see a grown man butcher the only language he knows.
hay its not rewording and there is no benifit to reading it. nobody is going to tell their freinds about the posts cause its not worth their eforts to read and they will ask why they waisted their time 8-)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Lets say. bump skill charm level up to 85 or 90... this will make them more rare and not findable until later... perhaps remove CB for a few key items that allow for very high level CB range.

Trust me, if you increase the game to 4x spawn, removed skillers, removed strength bonus off a lot of items and nerfed CB, and making it overall harder to survive hell difficulty will be frustratingly and stupidly difficult, which is not what I want to see. It's suppose to be challenging and encourge teamplay yes, but not next to impossible. No one would want to make melee characters if they're going to lose out a ton of strength and CB and be weaker with a 4x spawn because they'll become completely uneffective against trash mobs and not effective in boss fights anymore. If skillers are removed as well, this would require a huge re-balancing of all casting skills at the high range in order to offset the extreme drop in DPS...

-remove CB from a a few key items to avoid stacking up to overly high CB

-do not decrease strength bonus' much or at all, if you do make it slight. Cause in honesty, removing str from items is only going to be a damage nerf for melee classes. I doubt it will encourage more investement in strength hardpoints because high vit is still going to be required for survival, especially given that it will now be harder to survive in Hell difficulty, that would be a huge sacrifice- you can't do damage if you're dead . Unless you have some other change in regards to vit, hitpoints and strength to offset the change. either by more HP from vit or leveling up, or more damage from strength.

-increase the level of skill charms, if you plan on removing them you'll have to re-balance A LOT of the the skills at the high end range to compensate this end game.

Trust me as I've said before, balancing is a very fine line. even slight changes I've implemented in the past have caused one template to go from being useless to overpowered and vice versa... The more changes you make, the more balance testing and work there will be.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:56 pm 
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i would hate for blues items to not be used. not done looking at all of the items yet but making some useless items usable like wormskull or making vamp gaze more attractive for non necs since a nec would never use it anyways is awesome nd i love the idea of mace/sword mastery o skills to help melee paladins

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:05 pm 
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making skillers higher wont affect that much since tundra is run all day nd it drops 95s so gc's rolled from there should have the same chance to b a skiller as it is now no? or do they actually become harder to roll when the lvl of the mod is higher? anyhow it wont stop the grinders from getting a full inv of them. is a skill level cap even possible? and at what level do skills go from op to degenerate? 40? 50?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:12 pm 
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less skill charms means a full inventory for life charms, so str investment wont hurt anything except the chars that are getting near 40k life with bo and oak since they require no str and have a full inventory for life charms.

We could always put a cap on how many skill charms you can carry at a time. Simply make a new rare prefix for skill charms only and add a chunk of lifedrain to the same property.

Another more subtle way would be to give each skill charm a plain stat "carry_8" or something. The passive would have a -regen stat and the calculation would be something like:

(stat('carry_8'.accr)>8) ? stat('maxhp'.accr):0

This formula asks: is the carry_8 stat on this character greater than 8?
If yes, lifedrain is equal to the players current hp (instant lifedrain)
If no, provide 0 lifedrain.

+ all skills etc. wouldn't effect the passive as there are no gains per level, it is solely dependant on the carry_8 stat.

Pretty easy solution to stacking +25 skills from charms alone.

That and remove the reroll recipe.

Ps. the stat's string would simply read "carrying more than 8 will drain your life"

Edit: just tested and it works perfectly

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:17 pm 
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draining your life how quickly? full to zero in seconds? or minor degen?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:17 pm 
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full to one*

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:18 pm 
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removing the reroll recipe is a fix however I dont agree with it as there is little use for all the gems otherwise. unless there was a way to make skillers unrollable so that life/ar charms ect coudl still b rolled for

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:22 pm 
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well, you can adjust the forumal to drain it over a given time. for example

(stat('carry_8'.accr)>8) ? stat('maxhp'.accr)/250:0

this forumla asks the same question but the drain is divided by 250 (pretty much, full lifedrain over 250 frames or 10 secs. You just adjust the divisor to however many frames you want it to take to drain full life. I would recomend something like 15 secs so if you pick one up and id it so it puts you over 8 (or whatever) you wouldn't instantly go down to 1 hp.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:32 pm 
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regarding crushing blow, I personally think that the proposed changes are over the top and are going to cripple melee characters a bit much - especially in Norm & NM. I would personally keep it off all armor, gloves, etc and have it exist solely on weapons. I would set it to between 3-4% on 2h weapons and 1% on a few select 1h weapons.

Just my two cents. The overall consensus though was to reduce it to 1% only on 2h weapons, so that is what I worked with.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:41 pm 
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1)Suggestions for "ber" rune??
2)Imo with end game gear, whichever you prefer, should give you like 5-6% cb.

Quote:
less skill charms means a full inventory for life charms
That requires farming also. +40gcs drops a lot later in game I know. Imo changing life gain per lvl/vita could help. You also want to lower inc stamina % and lycan pushing melee chars into more vita,hp charms over more str ,ar/dmg charms. Something that I can't understand atm.


Last edited by Steel on Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:45 pm 
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Steel wrote:
1)Suggestions for "ber" rune??.


Wasn't ever resolved in a satisfying manner, so it is still up in the air.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:08 pm 

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One suggestion for "BER", lower the cb to 2% and the dr to 5% per rune. That should bring it in line with suggested changes. Thoughts on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:29 pm 
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no allows stacking

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:07 pm 

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Zikur wrote:
no allows stacking

Got a better idea? If so please share. I posted my idea to get constructive feedback. Which your answer didn't contain.

Think like this: 2% cb in a 6 soc weap add in 6 bers = 14% cb. I don't feel that will be a major issue. Perhaps 1% cb on ber runes. Same as above would yield 8% cb. Trying to give ideas, for us to see where we're at regarding proposed changes vs what actually get implemented.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:29 am 
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rather typical 'you dont like my answer i dont see yours!!'
im not proposing an idea, im just saying mancer and others have specifically said that removing cb and ways to stack high amounts of it is likely going to happen. allowing a rune to carry the property defeats that purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:55 am 
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Steel wrote:
1)Suggestions for "ber" rune??

1%cb per rune

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:22 am 

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Zikur wrote:
rather typical 'you dont like my answer i dont see yours!!'
im not proposing an idea, im just saying mancer and others have specifically said that removing cb and ways to stack high amounts of it is likely going to happen. allowing a rune to carry the property defeats that purpose.

I've been reading and re-reading proposed changes. Based on proposed changes, the way you're saying it will be happening, you'll see a max of 2% cb. I looked through all sources of cb, all are getting nerfed rather severely, max I saw on any source other than ber was 2% on any item. Most of them were uniques with 0 to 2 socs. Based on that, the proc rate of cb would be too low. 10% to me would be about as low as it should be. Even then it will have a limited effect. Too low and melee classes become useless, and would shift back to domination of caster builds.

FYI, I never said "I don't see your idea" rather I offered you a place to speak with intelligence. Which, you responded to with a backhanded insult. That is typical of how many have viewed my ideas on here. My ideas have attempted to be those which seek to find a middle ground between current gear and proposed changes. Parts of which are a bit extreme, others needing a bit more adjustment. As Mancer also said, small changes can have a dramatic affect.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:11 am 
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Quote:
well, you can adjust the forumal to drain it over a given time.

Overall idea is good but maybe add draining mana ? Let's say you play HC, pick up gc, ID it and you start losing hp fast and you're dead if you don't throw it quick enough... picking and id items shouldn't be punishing you ;/
Or just add 5-6 more unique grand charms(like gheed) with carry 1, dropping randomly or from fixed bosses, imo that way you could control it more easily than with draining.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:38 am 

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Blue has suggested the following as a way of nerfing skillers. The first part is nerfing them off magic charms and can't be rolled in. If you look here http://blue.arimyth.com/charms.html you'll see that souls shards would now actually have a reason to be farmed. Since you can only carry one of each shard, problem solved. To me that's a good idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:36 am 
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I know about soulstones, they were proposed long before you started playing HU, I'm saying about switching actual gcs, if Soulmancer doesn't want them to be removed.

Also as I suggested - now you can give +1 to char skills(not all) and randomize it 0 - 6 so 1/7 chance that it will be nec/din etc. If you wanted to divine it even more it would require adding new line in properties.txt copying randclassskill row and change stat1 to item_addskill_tab - need testing if change to func isn't needed.

If you would want +1 to char on gc, then remove 3 from func in randclasskill (it was used on torch only with flat +3 skill)


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:31 pm 
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well 15 sec drain isn't very fast since you are hovering over the charm when you id it anyway, you simply pick it up and drop it in the cube, you can set the time to whatever you like, 30 secs or w/e. you can also just drop any gc's into the cube and id them in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:13 pm 

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would different carry_x props for different skill charms be an alternative? to give hybrids some love? and where secondary tree just pumps up the main one they could carry the same? i.e 2 mods for ama so she can do 8bow +8 jav but not 8 bow + 8 passive etc?


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:37 pm 

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Silent, that would require some hard coding if I'm not wrong. Whereas, removing the ability of skills to occur on gc is less difficult. I'm kinda on the fence here, I like the idea of rolling for skillers, while I also like the idea of shards having skills. However, both cannot exist at the same time or it would unbalance the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Quote:
However, both cannot exist at the same time or it would unbalance the game.
But they will(99 to 1 as Mancer has last word here), we just need to find a way to nerf them. Anyway speaking of shards, it will push few people(parties) early to priv games to prevent looting/ninja them. Now they ninja them :). I'd personally start with nm baal shard, or adding nm sammy +1


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:27 pm 
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kwikster wrote:
Silent, that would require some hard coding if I'm not wrong. Whereas, removing the ability of skills to occur on gc is less difficult. I'm kinda on the fence here, I like the idea of rolling for skillers, while I also like the idea of shards having skills. However, both cannot exist at the same time or it would unbalance the game.


no hard coding required, just a more complex formula. Only problem is, calculation columns are restricted to 255 characters and that might go over that limit. I'd have to write it out and see.

You can do almost anything when there is a calc column involved

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Norm sammy charm by far is the most Important charm in the game till Anni.. Reason Exp.. The Nm shard really does nothing but add to the life and mana ball really.. Just my point of view. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Exp is a non issue until level 95+ FYI. I guess after killing 10 fallens, it's a real struggle to have to kill one more for the same exp as using a 10% exp charm. Nobody wastes time with norm sammy during the reset, since its easier to spend that time progressing and getting exp from higher level areas. I don't expect you to know how exp mechanics work though since you can barely spell your own name.

I know you take exp more seriously than most since you wouldn't risk fighting norm sammy with a level 99 char (and I quote) "Incase I lose Exp" lmfao.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:34 pm 

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u attack Asteroth in every corner :/


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:33 pm 
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True story

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:51 am 
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i dont see a problem with that

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:09 pm 

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how u wana focus on the "top balancing issues" if ur hateing each other in every topic.
why not move to the other section made for this?! And let ppl put their opion on the topic wich might help to find a final conclusion. this is why someone mentioned that moderators are not doing their job.
im out.


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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:28 pm 
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he doesnt help with anything. he just bitches and moans nd goes off about 3 spawn

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Sirmok wrote:
moderators are not doing their job. im out.


Generally when moderators (ie. me) are doing my "job" (which is of course not a job because no one is paying me), people don't notice. Did the people start their own topic or did a moderator split it? Was a topic deleted that you never read? If so - how would you ever know?

Just some food for thought when you stand high on that mountain and shout down your accusations against others.

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:06 pm 
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there has already been discussion on this. the amount of time it would take blue to split and delete topics to keep it on track isnt worth his effort since almost every thread in this forum goes off topic at some point or another. relax. with the 100 ppl that visit these forums im sure we can sort through the mess

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:07 pm 
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There are other issues on balance then just nerfing gear skillers and other bs.. Sad that most don't see these issues..
Anyone ever take a close look at Wyrms and how op they are for a2..
they have more skills then any sub monster in the game.
Wyrms skills= Dcrep/ Thorns/ Nados/ Rabies/ tele/stun/ plus champs have a spectral hit psn/ Now these monster as a unique get even more op with with immune to any ele/ ss / pi and plus all the other skills i just mentioned.
Zerkers skills.. Frenzy/blade fury/blood curse/and ether blessed aim or Vigor aura/stun.
Champ beasts skill= defensive shake/ fire ball cannon/ and some lightning thing forget its name..
Saraphs skills = tele/ heal others and self/fire ball/
Marilths skills = Valcano/ fissure/ fana/fire ball/ Ice blast/
Minions of destruction skills= blood curse /stun
Torture Demons skills= blade shield/ Lr / fissure/ice blast


I guess what i'm saying is this some of these monsters need to be tweaked aswell .. There is no reason that a act2 sub monster should be more powerful then the rest..Something needs to be done with Wyrms not saying make them weak as hell but tone them down a hair..
Lmao was just in a game before were it took more time to kill a unique Wyrm then Dury him self ... Thats not very balanced .. Dury should be top dog in act2 not one of his subs... 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Asteroth wrote:
There are other issues on balance then just nerfing gear skillers and other bs.. Sad that most don't see these issues..


go do it then. If it is good enough, maybe it will get included.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:45 pm 
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Ya this is just my exp with me running through the game the last week with Kannli and Cool-player.. We are doing this run all legit to see differance with gear boss's and sub monsters.. Figured I would start with sub monsters.
Seeing the high amount of skills the wyrms have just thought I would bring that up... Maybe have the wyrms not get Dflight till hell.. And give the others I staighted above some more skills in hell to make up for there skill loss to the wyrm..
We should also look at immunes on boss's in hell.. My thoughts are don't think the necro should be able to brake the ele immunes .
Like Andy with poison.. Dury with cold.. Meph with light .. Diablo fire when he spawns it..and Baal should have a tun .. Heh he is top dog ..
This would really make a big inpact on hell game play and really force people into team work..There are other boss's that I think fit in this to but didn't face them yet for the test...

If there is anything blue or anyone can think of why we are running along to test feal free to ask .. Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:10 pm 
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Sry for the Dble post here....

Another issue I seen is bone cages .. Ya there funny as hell but in the same sence a pain in the ars...Fact that caster class's being forced to use the same old tricks to get out of them cuz they can't brake them sucks.. Being forced all the time to use the same gear set ups gets boring after awile.. Such as tele staff and enigma or on a necro being forced out of his custom set up to use trang just for tele ..Maybe make them so they can be broken easier... I would love to see these builds use the gear that the person intended then always needing tele... Plus tele is a very op skill in its own right....By making cages a bit weaker and loosing tele on that staff and trang would really help with balance aswell.. Can't remmber what all the idea's were on trang set .. See i could never understand why tele was taken of a lvl 74 wand but put on a lvl 54 staff .. That to me made no sence all it did was make tele easier to get ...Just some thoughts.. Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:43 am 
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This idea on nerfing Mana burn to is a bad move aswell... Just going to push the caster class more and make your tanks do nothing... Mana burn was always here like that don't understand why its a issue now.. Keep in mind that nerfing mana burn means nerfing energy shield aswell...I like the mana burn just where its at cuz it keeps casters in check..


These changes are starting to get out of hand man geez... Do we really want to call hu // Casters Unleashed because thats where all this is headed..

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 Post subject: Re: Post top balancing issues
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Quote:
This idea on nerfing Mana burn to is a bad move aswell
Mana burn by melee chars is bugged - doing 256 more damage it should - meaning it drains always full mana orb. It cannot be nerfed - only fixed - then addjust it properly in txt files - hint: black souls have mana burn but ranged which isn't bugged. Anyway it requires code edit I've done already just ask and I'll send.


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