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 Post subject: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:37 pm 

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muleofal wrote:
a difficult mod should be difficult even with the best gear.


There is a problem with this.

If mod = hard with best gear, then what happens when you don't have the best gear?
if good gear = more effective character, then mediocre gear = less effective character.

If characters are less effective and can't accomplish the game, they start to turn to more effective characters to help them out. Then the rush cycle starts up.

If you follow the logic all the way through and don't just stop at the popular first step, you will realize that if you have a mod that is difficult even with the best gear you have failed in your balance because only the people with the best gear can properly progress through it. The people with the best gear become your target audience and that is a bad thing. People turn to farming, trading and hacking to get that gear (which isn't playing the game) and turn to higher levels or people with the best gear to complete the quests (which isn't playing the game).

A difficult mod should be difficult with the "average" gear. I don't mean the crappy gear, I mean relatively reasonable gear. A difficult mod should become easy with the best gear in the game.

This isn't something that most people in this community want to accept, but the logic is clear. Once you have all the fancy toys, you are going to have to work harder to find a challenge.

I ran in to this with my rabies druid. The game was moderately challenging for the build for most of the game. Once he got loaded up with skillers, impressive crafted rings, templars, etc he rocked the house and could take down Hell Sammy. That's just the nature of having the best gear.

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i was starting to loose faith with all the bickering and was even thinking of trying another mod since this one was gonna become aftermath.....

This post made my day.


in a race your gonna do better in a Ferrari then in a Yugo

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:25 pm 

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Too bad you took that out of context and completely botched the idea I had put through. A problem with a lot of the end gear is it provides a serious jump in how good a player becomes to the point where the game actually progresses easier than harder. I'm not saying it shouldn't be easier with the top gear (never have I ever said anything of the sort), but I feel that a lot of the top end gear makes it significantly easier, not just a little easier. In addition, if you make a lot of the lower, kinda crappy gear more useful and reduce the range of how good the top end versus the bottom end gear, then the game then becomes more reliant on the team play and strategy used rather than something like "oh hey lemme farm for a dscale before we take on baal." A lot of the items in hell are a LOT stronger than the items you get immediately before in nightmare, and IMO a lot of hell is just as easy as the end of nightmare because of how much better the items are in hell. This mod was supposed to be advertised as a challenge, and when I came here all I saw was beefed up skills, synergies and items to go along with beefed up bosses. It really wasn't that much more difficult than LOD. To have high end items COMPLETELY take out the challenge of the game is absurd.

If you want to call someone out on something, make sure you get the whole point and not just a one-line sliver of a much larger wall of text or be prepared to discuss the topic in full with the person you are calling out. Also, make sure not to assume what somebody means.


Last edited by muleofal on Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:29 pm 

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Your logic is based on the assumption that without the best gear you cannot progress. Obviously this is not true as HU is primarily a group based game. No part of end game should be trivialized by gear, it should make you better yes, but it should not completely trivialize content like you seem to want.


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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:43 pm 

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JarL wrote:
Obviously this is not true as HU is primarily a group based game. No part of end game should be trivialized by gear, it should make you better yes, but it should not completely trivialize content like you seem to want.


This is basically my entire rant in a nutshell. Top end gear should make your char better, but not so good that the game becomes easier or that it makes a huge difference in how the challenge of the game is. Ultimately, the parties that come up with the best mix of builds and the best strategies should be the best/first to beat baal.


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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:54 pm 
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Its not really hard to come up with the best mix of builds. There is only 1 best mix of builds.

Pally
Barb
Druid
Nec

Nerfing gear wont do anything to harm anyone. The whole game is possible with current level 45-60 equip.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:47 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Nerfing gear wont do anything to harm anyone.


unfortunately, this simply isn't true. There are a good chunk of players who are not talented enough (or don't have the time to invest) to accomplish the challenge this game offers without the added crutch of powerful gear.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
The whole game is possible with current level 45-60 equip.


This is 100% true, but it really should have the following addition made to it:

The whole game is possible with current level 45-60 equip, but it really wouldn't be very fun for a lot of people.

If you are methodical, farm for the gear, build your character well, play together as a team, have the time to invest - you can accomplish this game with sub-par gear. Unfortunately, that doesn't describe 85% of the people on the realm and it shouldn't have to. So we have gear that people can lean on to get things done.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:03 am 
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you dont even need to spend time farming. A well played team is far greater. The mod should focus on teamwork more than it does currently.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:26 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
you dont even need to spend time farming. A well played team is far greater. The mod should focus on teamwork more than it does currently.


Agreed, though currently the mod is contradictory towards teamwork. You need a team to advance, but certain builds need no one and can twink/rush everyone else.

Granted, this would be fine if we had a large community. As it is, however... Even with mfing. Why would people make a public mfing game when they can clear tundra in two minutes themselves no problem with a poison necro. This mod is NOT about teamwork. It's about building one of the few builds that can solo everything and rushing everyone else that can't.

I have a meteor sorc. What am I supposed to do? I decide to finally join one of the public mf games, T4 or something. I say hi, no one answers. They party me, all in tundra. I go to the wp and die before the screen has even loaded to two bosses they've left on top of the wp. No one says anything, no one clears my body. I quit. Community sucks ass.

Who is gonna be interested in mfing/questing with a fire sorc when they have poison necros and etc that can do it all by themselves? 90% of games are private and those that aren't are either people being rushed by players like Leah or silent groups of sucky people. This is why I don't play on hell, there's just nothing to do. The only time I ever was in a hell baal game was when it had a poison necro/bear druid to do it for everyone. Game over in fifteen minutes. Lame. Now my sorc just sits there doing nothing.

Yes, I'm jaded. Yes, some of that probably isn't valid, but I don't care so much anymore since I don't play since I mean...nothing to ever do.


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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:12 am 

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Too bad you took that out of context and completely botched the idea I had put through. A problem with a lot of the end gear is it provides a serious jump in how good a player becomes to the point where the game actually progresses easier than harder. I'm not saying it shouldn't be easier with the top gear (never have I ever said anything of the sort), but I feel that a lot of the top end gear makes it significantly easier, not just a little easier. In addition, if you make a lot of the lower, kinda crappy gear more useful and reduce the range of how good the top end versus the bottom end gear, then the game then becomes more reliant on the team play and strategy used rather than something like "oh hey lemme farm for a dscale before we take on baal." A lot of the items in hell are a LOT stronger than the items you get immediately before in nightmare, and IMO a lot of hell is just as easy as the end of nightmare because of how much better the items are in hell. This mod was supposed to be advertised as a challenge, and when I came here all I saw was beefed up skills, synergies and items to go along with beefed up bosses. It really wasn't that much more difficult than LOD. To have high end items COMPLETELY take out the challenge of the game is absurd.

If you want to call someone out on something, make sure you get the whole point and not just a one-line sliver of a much larger wall of text or be prepared to discuss the topic in full with the person you are calling out. Also, make sure not to assume what somebody means.


Last edited by muleofal on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i was agreeing with the whole statement not parts or even one line.........you said what i lacked the eloquence to say so well.

I was not being stupid and i completely understood what u said.......and with Ferrari gear as it is now at end game it is very easy for the most part.
However I dont want a yugo either, act one naked is yugo...........ide like to reach cadilac stage at around 90, and progress from there with maybe puttin a nice sound system in at the end.

However i know that's gonna be very hard to balance so I will wait as patiently as I can. Also in all fairness if I've reached 101 AND I have the best gear possible. I should be able to solo a few boss for mf purpose or make things like the cow parts drop a little more often. So that I can have something to do when friends aren't on. (seems currently one in 6 or 7 runs i get a piece, but I'm told most find em more often.)

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Pappy wrote:
"oh hey lemme farm for a dscale before we take on baal."


This thread should be stickied as it has one of the dumbest quotes ever in it (see above).

If the top end items are not toned down abit then making them drop from baal only would increase rarity and the game would finish after baal instead of at tundra wp like it does for alot of people.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:25 pm 

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That quote was said by me in my first post. It was basically a mockery of the game/items that can power people through challenges when their actual skills/party strategies cannot.

I'm just really confused as to what you mean by your post to be honest. Are you looking for top end items to drop only at baal? Clarification of what you meant would be ideal.


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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:34 pm 
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muleofal wrote:
That quote was said by me in my first post.


Gonna go out on a limb, but I *think* he was referring to my response to your statement. I don't think you really have anything to do with Pappy's comment other than providing me with something to respond to.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:34 pm 
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i mean the drop rate would be the same as now but only baal can drop them. solo farming tundra for everything you need is weak. You dont even need ancient to get the very best gear and to be honest, they are the only really dangerous bosses in hell.

Getting the really good top end items is very rare but they still flood in. I dont think any baal run would be put on hold till someone can find a dscale. You can go all season without seeing one drop. If they were changed to only drop from baal at least people would have to work at it to find the stuff they want instead of teleporting around in tundra till one drops.

The mod atm seems to reward patience alot more than "skill"(for want of a better word) is rewarded

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:51 pm 

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I like that suggestion. Wasn't that the way it was in vanilla? I could definitely get behind that change even if though it would hurt me specifically. I've only killed Baal once in over two years in this game.

Has this been put forward to the Devs yet?


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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:07 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
i mean the drop rate would be the same as now but only baal can drop them. solo farming tundra for everything you need is weak. You dont even need ancient to get the very best gear and to be honest, they are the only really dangerous bosses in hell.

Getting the really good top end items is very rare but they still flood in. I dont think any baal run would be put on hold till someone can find a dscale. You can go all season without seeing one drop. If they were changed to only drop from baal at least people would have to work at it to find the stuff they want instead of teleporting around in tundra till one drops.

The mod atm seems to reward patience alot more than "skill"(for want of a better word) is rewarded


Makes perfect sense and is definitely an idea I'd support. And no question can a party do Baal without all the sweet and elite items, but it just seems a lot of people take that route. "Get to tundra, farm my butt off, level up, then do Baal." I've heard it mentioned before in game: "Before we do Baal, lemme level to 99 first so I can wear my hell Sammy charm and LOS heart."

And yea Vanilla LOD was more of a focus on "get through the game with whatever came your way, no farming or leveling necessary, do the farming and leveling afterwards." Of course we wouldn't want to make the game anything that easy or make Baal and his minions easy to farm.

I still think balancing items is a better route to take because ultimately items that are only dropped from Baal will ultimately be farmed and handed out to lower level guys. However, the item dropping from Baal only thing could work. You can also make it so that each minion and Baal himself only drop 1 unique or rune at a time but restrict it to level 85+ uniques and runes Vex and above.


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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:51 am 
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Objection:

PureRage-DoD wrote:
they are the only really dangerous bosses in hell.



Lag is the MOST dangerous boss in hell. And NM. And even normal. If you dont notice it coz you run your own server/games.... I tell you already :mrgreen:

And now I'm talking about lag:

PureRage-DoD wrote:

The mod atm seems to reward patience alot more than "skill"(for want of a better word) is rewarded


With extreme laggy servers running around ( specially when you are not from the country the server is running ) I dont like a game that relies on "skills" rather than "patience"...
"Patience" is why HU is still viable and funny for me. If I should deal with "skills" ( such an irony from a simple and plain game like d2, tbh ), I would quit and find another source of amusement, rather than dealing with my constant lag spikes. And no, I'm not gonna play SC. xD

Thats my personal opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:13 am 
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tonykantos wrote:
I suck.


Quit suckin'.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:51 pm 
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If you cant handle lag play SC or single player. There are ways to deal with lag. Even on zerolag servers you can cope. If you die after 4-5 seconds of lag you are likely not well equipped or underleveled for the area.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:11 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
If you cant handle lag play SC or single player


Bad idea if one wants to play HC and multiplayer ...

Abominae wrote:
tonykantos wrote:
I suck your dick


Quit suckin'.


Fag :mrgreen:

--------

Seriously, I was just complaining about my personal issues... I dont care a shit , because that cannot be fixed anyway ( appart of stop playing ).

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:05 pm 
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tonykantos wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
If you cant handle lag play SC or single player


Bad idea if one wants to play HC and multiplayer ...


Then stop being cheap and get a decent connection.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:46 pm 
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sure, will you buy it for me? thanks dude , ur zo kool ;)

[random] Where's Pappy? I miss him [/random]

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:30 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
tonykantos wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
If you cant handle lag play SC or single player


Bad idea if one wants to play HC and multiplayer ...


Then stop being cheap and get a decent connection.


Actually, having better internet connection doesn't mean you will get less lag, I've found from experience that the further away you are from the hosting server the more lag you will experience.

For example: I live in Australia and if there is a server in the USA and a server in the UK I'm generally going to get less lag if I can get into the server that is closest to me.

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 Post subject: Re: please sticky this its the best quote ive ever seen
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:01 am 
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yeh thats always true but if you have a good connection and the server is half decent you should stay around 100-200 ping (what i generally get on zerolag). Obviously if i have my server up, i get a ping of 0-2 as im like 2 feet from the host.

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