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 Post subject: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Currently the only limiting factor to using weapons and armor is strength which puts strength in a unique category for balance.

Removing it from charms will force players to either:

a. click on the strength button (ya right - I know, some people will still never do that)
b. choose to socket their gear with amethysts, which is balanced out by losing the ability to socket that gear with other useful things.
c. strength bug constantly with weapons on switch

*edit with a few clarifications*

I and others recognize that strength charms generally do not play a part in end game due to the obscene amount of strength you can gain from high level items. In general they are a means to the end and used early game only to be discarded later on. This also means that end game str on items clearly needs to be reduced, I may update this thread with a list of the core offenders (or if someone else wants to list it too - that is cool).

The goal is to reduce those tools that players use along the way.

As for str bugging - sure, would be great to remove that. Got any suggestions though?

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Strength charms are merely for twinking until you can support yourself with stats on gear. End game you would be a fool to still carry strength charms instead of skillers or other forms of charms depending on your build.

I wouldn't be sad to see strength charms removed or limited. In fact it'd make the game more interesting. I support this.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:59 pm 
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it wont change anything, I only use str charms to top up the last 4-5 i need for the next bit of gear i need. That can be found on blood rings, unique/rare amulets. By the time the heavy equip comes round you already have plenty str. Adjusting diamonds progression to fit with enemy damage at that stage in the game is easier.

Late game you dont need str charms at all anyway, especially not if you have one or 2 of these kicking about.
This druid is 5 base str, dex and energy btw...
If anything, fix the str on items


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:19 pm 

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Strength charms don't seem like an issue to me, if a player wants to use them he is either twinking (like LmT said) or is foregoing the use of skillers, life charms, and AR charms - all of which are superior.


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:24 pm 

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and forcing players to str bug instead of str charm seems like forcing more cheese..


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Bad idea. Need to think Casters like some of those charms so they can get more vita so there not as fragile. And like the rest said at end game there worthless.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:35 pm 
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Caster gear doesn't require as much strength. I don't see a problem. If there are caster items that require strength and it is causing a problem, then tweak the item.

example:
Templars Might only requires 103 str.
Tyraels Might requires 232 str.

I have no problem dropping the str req on Templars down to 60 personally. I am also open to creating a new lvl95 armor class too to provide low strength caster armor:

Caster's Cloak
lvl95 req, required strength 60
Base Defense 420-460

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Again your talking end game. I mean till then they help. My point is is this its okay for a barb to get 28 to 30 k life but the caster gets only around 4 k thats even with str bugging and only a 5 str base. One of the only ways you can get okay life with casters early game is will str charms and rare rings if your lucky (untweeked). My lvl 37 Assa in Hc use's str charms so i can have more life ex.. reason is i'm the tank of the group wich i need high life and Dmg reduction ex..to sustain boss attacks. All this talk about end game doesn't help with trying to come up with balance for this mod just look at the Psn Striker how op is that build geez.
Silly joke about my psn striker i watched someone try to kill norm Baal with a sorc high lvl he was failing his mission. I helped with the funny thought i wonder just how many strikes it will take to kill him in and it was completey stupid of how fast he went down same thing goes for Hell Abyss Diablo Baal ex.. Again to much nerfing and buffing not enough testing.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:06 pm 
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thing is, melee druids, pallys etc can all use war for 104 str, you can get that much from 2 good blood rings and a decent amulet.
Sorc can already use templars easy enough without str charms.

Balancing all of these reqs etc. will take alot of work in order to not rape casters of any survivability.

Either the difficulty needs scaled up or the items need scaled down so people need to spread stats more evenly.
I personally vote both

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:11 pm 
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Ok, lets run through each of your points:

Asteroth wrote:
Again your talking end game. I mean till then they help.


Fair enough - what sort of strength should a caster have early game? Is it reasonable for a caster to have at least 20 strength in normal, 40 strength in NM, and 60 strength by Hell?

If you are saying that it should be fine for a caster to spend no points in strength, that I have to disagree with. I don't think a balanced game or strategically diverse game is one where you only click on the vitality button for the entire game.

Asteroth wrote:
My lvl 37 Assa in Hc use's str charms so i can have more life ex.. reason is i'm the tank of the group wich i need high life and Dmg reduction ex..to sustain boss attacks.


That character is no longer a caster then if it is taking the tank role. If you want high life, dmg reduction, etc - then be prepared to pay a price for it (strength). I don't believe in free rides or getting everything you want with nothing to pay.

Bottom line is that too many people utilize your strategy - base strength, use charms to get to end gear and then rely on the overpowered strength boosts it gives to make a godly character that has all the benefits of gear and none of the weaknesses.

In my world, if you want to upgrade from quilted armor to ghost armor to get better mods, then you should be required to boost your strength.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Thing is blue you don't seem to get it at all most players Hc Sc alike you use str dex vita energy base systems. most will only say run on a Sorc anywhere between 5 to 20 base str there is no base for nm or hell the base is just that from the begining the rest is energy vita . Reason is safty Speaking in the terms of Hc. Now you want me to make a Sorc more fragile then she all ready is seems = foolish. And my assa's build is Melee / Blade so i'm just as much of a caster as a sorc maybe even more with me spamming blades everywhere. I switch to what is needed to what boss we are fighting most of the time blades but in case's like A2 Dury i tank to keep him at bay just like andy aswell. So i guess now if this takes affect all your going to do is make every caster use war for def and life negating there real dmg with templers . But Templers lacks in safty so there is no win here.
This is why i bitch so much about testing instead of preaching. Lets compare the Psn Striker to the Rabies Drood man wtf went wrong there no testing . Ya do i want the bug gone with Carrion YES but wtf were you people thinking My rabies drood in no way shape or form can kill as fast as my Striker reason not testing the damn build.And before anyone starts i'm talking with now skill gc's pain as they are. My striker hits 227 k stab with his lvl 36 skill cald Lr. Now my Drood on the other hand only gets 167 k with no buffer like lr and thats with all psn gear . Only way the Drood gets his Lr ( solo) is with Time rw mind you at lvl 90 or that shield ya guess what its not a constant affect like the nec cuz he can cast Lr all the time the drood needs his chance% to go off. I can go on with other builds aswell but the Necro as it stands is the most Op build in hu go look at the ladders everyone and there brother has one. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:54 pm 

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I say leave strength charms, for the simple fact that if someone actually IS using them end game, they're taking a hit with other charms they could be using in their inventory, like life small charms for example. As said, mostly, people are using them earlier on to tweak themselves out with "good" gear. Also, if you plan on removing strength from some of the items, such as the nos coil, rends, sm gloves, shadow dancer myrm. greaves, then I think it would be even more important to leave the charms in game.

For example, my pally gains about 50 hit points with one small life charm...think about having about 50 of them. Also, this is before BO, or oak. For an ss bear, it gets even more insane, I can't recall offhand how many actual hit points a 20 life sc gives them when in bear form. If instead, I lost strength from equipment, I'd have to take a big life hit just to be able to use some of my equip, by replacing said charms with strength charms. If you really want to do this, which I am fully against, the nos coil is the strange glue keeping all of my equipment together...

I am against this though because other vastly imbalanced things in the game should be looked at first, I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. In the end, how many hit points do you think people are gaining by pumping full vitality...do you really think it's causing a game imbalance?

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:27 pm 
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Indeed there much more things going on here then trival shit as a str charm get a clue.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:35 pm 
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Lorek B wrote:
In the end, how many hit points do you think people are gaining by pumping full vitality...do you really think it's causing a game imbalance?

It can make abig impact with some good buffs and if not for the mass stats on gear I would have to use more str charms on my pally. He dont even have a heart or sammy brain yet :O

Edit: images removed to make room for attatchments

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:44 pm 

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Holy shit :D

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 3:20 am 
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i think jarl and pure rage summed up what i want to say pretty nicely.
the only time i really use stat charms are when skillers get stats on them.

and ill add my own opinion on this:
i like the concept of what you want to do blue, and i agree with your intention, however on maths server he tried the exact same thing and it truly backfired in the worst possible way.

if you really wanted to be spicy, you could remove all charms except the few unique ones.(keeping the unique ones to encourage people to do los and what not) thats what i would suggest :) this would be a super fast way of toning down super endgame chars and make the game better for everyone. youd have to decrease the drop rates of good items a bit though to keep people hunting for stuff though.


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 10:14 am 
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Alexius wrote:
i like the concept of what you want to do blue, and i agree with your intention, however on maths server he tried the exact same thing and it truly backfired in the worst possible way.


There certainly is a lot of potential complexity in moving forward with the general concept and I agree it would require a great deal of finesse to get it perfect. For example, one core thing about making strength actually meaningful rather than just a nuissance that people overcome is unique variety. If you are going to lose precious life in order to wear that heavier armor or wield that heavy weapon, there needs to be a notable difference in the item that you are upgrading too.

Lets take Dragonscale as an example. I think we can all agree that having 50% Increased chance of blocking and 3 sockets and all the other candy makes it significantly more powerful than Alma Negra. At the moment, no one even bothers to debate it, once you hit the right level (and if you are fortunate enough to have one), you gear up a dscale and toss your Alma Negra. What if the str req on that Dscale was higher though and str was harder to come by. You now have a bit more of a cost with using the dscale because you had to sacrifice vit points to utilize that gear.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:26 pm 
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K lets look at Dscale to Dforce there both lvl 95 and Dforce dosn't even compare to Dscales res sorb and Block % .So if your going to fix shit fix that shield and give it res and sorb like Dscale.Fix all those useless Zod rune words. Fix other bugs and glitchs. One thing i do hate is being forced to play like you blue not tring to pick a fight here but that is just what you bean doing you want everyone here to play your style and your way .Thing is that most of the people that play Hu don't bother much with this forum. The problem is that there are to many that think there way is better when in fact its not. Sad you make a topic about str charms and there is much more that needs fix then them. 3 years now i bean bitching about the Zod rws and how most just suck. Make los flaged that you need every quest done in norm nm and hell not just hell quests. Look at how Op eth items are Geez i can go on and on but your gripe is str charms . And to another i don't really think you care what we think most of the time cuz you just do things your way anyways so i don't even no why we post.Example of this we the people of the mod players had no say in those new Rws you made we had no clue to even wtf they were till after reset and poof here they are in are face and 3 didn't work cuz they were never tested lol. And the time i'm talking is when you made Purity and i still believe that rw is way Op in the terms of the heal buff but i know you all will tell me i'm wrong see i remember when insight was the item of choise for a healer reason was the Medi aura. But i'm done with this i will just sit back and watch this mod get destroyed over stupid ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Asteroth wrote:
tl;dr


You might actually possess some valid points if you wrote in a way people could actually understand and comprehend.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:49 pm 
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:o

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Last edited by PureRage-DoD on Tue May 03, 2011 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Lorek B wrote:
Holy shit :D



this is why u need to listen to me when I give u advice ;) I wasn't lieing to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:27 pm 
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make a test realm... implement the changes such as removing charms all together which actually sounds great.. it'll cure the call for a reset :)


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:43 am 
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hunterAS wrote:
make a test realm... implement the changes such as removing charms all together which actually sounds great.. it'll cure the call for a reset :)


A test realm would be interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:02 am 
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hunterAS wrote:
make a test realm... implement the changes such as removing charms all together which actually sounds great.. it'll cure the call for a reset :)


duplicating the realm would be a pain.
building a test patch that people can use in single player would be much easier. Then people could just host up IP games and play with a group to test things out.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:26 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
hunterAS wrote:
make a test realm... implement the changes such as removing charms all together which actually sounds great.. it'll cure the call for a reset :)


duplicating the realm would be a pain.
building a test patch that people can use in single player would be much easier. Then people could just host up IP games and play with a group to test things out.


test realm would not be a pain in the ass I'd do it but I'm not exactly trusted .. even for a test realm so...... blue or pure do it :) I'm sure duff could aid in any setup questions but there are step by step guides on how to do it already.





and it solves my desire for a reset :)


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:42 am 
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I would do it but im not sure how well my connection would cope. Also it seems like it would take abit of work getting it set up. Im shit with computers and all that stuff. (pick stuff up as i go). also, it would likely own my servers stability meaning i would have to take it down while the testing was being done.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:25 pm 
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hunterAS wrote:
and it solves my desire for a reset :)


Oddly enough, satisfying your desires isn't located anywhere on my "to do" list ;)

I am going to have to pass on setting up a realm. I know first hand that while something may sound easy, when it involves multiplayer connections it ALWAYS ends up being a royal pain in the ass.

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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:47 pm 
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so if I actually set one up will you guys use it... and send me the update files that you want to test..


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:56 pm 
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well I got it working but..... for me. I'm having troubles with the actual address translation through the route..... meh anyways we can just use open bnet to test the stuff so in your forum just post ur updates and we'll start some actual open games to test ^^


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 Post subject: Re: Remove strength charms
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:15 pm 
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You can say what you want about me with spelling or what ever doesn't really bother me one bit. What does bother me are extremely lame idea's that were already done with AfterMath and look at that mod it blows. The fact that you people don't speak of real issues is kinda sad. And my idea for a closed realm for beta testing is just that closed.Two partys 1 in Hc 1in Sc how hard is that. So may other MMo's do that with new patchs chapters ex..Expamle on Star Wars Galaxies when they come out with a new chapter the hole realm goes down for days so the reps and testers can test for bugs and glitchs and i took part in many of these tests. Its not hard just are people are way to lazy to do work to make the mod better no we need to bitch and fight on a forum when nothing ever gets done.

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