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 Post subject: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Is it me, or is that skill's damage incredibly sub-par?

At level 60 it does around 13k-15.5k. For a single target attack (and for the most part, it is a single target attack) that just seems pathetic.
Especially considering a sorceress at the same skill level does around 65k-75k Fire Bolt.

Now I know that a sorc is a bit more squishy than a Paladin, but that's nearly 5x the damage Fist of Heavens does. I could understand maybe twice as much, or even 3 times, but 5x the damage. Let's not forget Sorcs can reduce resistance below 0%, something a Fister has no luxury to do.
Also, a Sorceress with a level 60 Static Field does 11k-14.5k. That's just a little less than Fist Of Heavens for an almost full screen attack.

I've never played a Fister but always wanted to. Is there something I'm missing that makes this build not completely blow? And if I'm not, this skill needs a seriously revamping.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:56 pm 
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i have had a different experience with it - I find it to work out great for doing dmg even as a secondary skill for my Hammerdin. Works outstanding as a way to clear through to Samhiem with all the undead.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Well you get hammers, which are stupidly strong.

Not using hammers on an offensive caster pally is like said fire sorc not using fireball and meteor.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:21 pm 
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the difference is hammers need conc, not all potential fisters are hammerdins

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:29 pm 
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FoH damage is great early on but the initial bolt itself is lacking (the AoE bolts aren't too bad but could use a slight increase).

I'd increase the synergies by 5% per level.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:08 pm 
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Mrawskrad wrote:
Well you get hammers, which are stupidly strong.

Not using hammers on an offensive caster pally is like said fire sorc not using fireball and meteor.



So because a caster Pally has one strong skill, the rest shouldn't be considered?
The problem with your example is Fireball, Meteor, and Firebolt are all great skills, equally great in different situations. Situations that actually happen often.

On the other hand, FoH is good during the few instances there are tightly packed mobs of Undead and even then can be out shined by Blessed Hammer due to pure damage.

We're not talking about Hammerdins here, we're talking about a Fister being an actual viable build as a dedicated Fister plays much differently than a Hammerdin would.

I'd just like to see the damage being boosted to be at least comparable to a Sorc's single target attack. Something around range of 35k, maybe even 40-45k.

Also does anyone know if, like hammers, FoH isn't effected by Demon's & Undead's magical resistance?

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:06 pm 

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I'm pretty sure FoH does NOT ignore demon/undead resistances like hammers do. There aren't nearly the same magic resistances/immunes like there are elemental immunes though. FoH is much better than hammers in any situation where there are more than 3 or so undead/demons around... the damage of hammers cannot outshine FoH in those instances. Try hammers versus Foh in the Vault levels leading up to Az and Bel. and you'll see that Foh clearly outshines hammers by a long shot. It gets converted to a really potent AoE skill in those situations. However, I definitely agree to an extent that the skill is barely useful outside of a couple areas/situations. The problems I see are:

- It has no true aura to help it. Hammers have conc. Zeal has fanat or one of the elemental auras. Vengeance has conviction. Yea you can use a lot of different auras with it, but none really boost its effectiveness and you might as well just be an aura bitch.
- It can't really fulfill a trash killing role (other than a select few areas) or a boss killing role.
- If you beef it up and keep everything else the same in terms of the skill tree, then a paladin can be a devastating hammerdin, Foher, and smiter all at the same time. That's completely overpowered.


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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:11 pm 
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the damage could never be that high due to how easy it is to aim in boss fights. it would be nice if it could be changed so that hammer recieve synergy from foh but foh doesnt recieve it from hammers and give foh HB + another synergy and up the dmg, that way it doesnt give any new tools to the hdins yet they keep their partally synergized foh for undead areas and a dedicated fister has a different tree to skill if he wants higher dmg

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:19 pm 
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has anyone tried to see if -magic resists makes a dent in terms of making this a boss killing skill?

Personally, I still think it is fine as is though. Worked great for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:22 pm 

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Zikur wrote:
the damage could never be that high due to how easy it is to aim in boss fights. it would be nice if it could be changed so that hammer recieve synergy from foh but foh doesnt recieve it from hammers and give foh HB + another synergy and up the dmg, that way it doesnt give any new tools to the hdins yet they keep their partally synergized foh for undead areas and a dedicated fister has a different tree to skill if he wants higher dmg


I have no idea what this means. There are probably four or five sentences in here all jumbled into one or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:24 pm 
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thats cause u used it as a hdin's situational secondary skill. changes i proposed would keep that an option but also make a dedicated fister possible, however it could be hard to balance and no need to risk another imbalance when this mod isnt being updated regularly

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:25 pm 
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it means that just cause a sorc deals 35 doesnt mean foh has to.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:31 pm 
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foh is to the pally what light fury is to the zon. it is extremely effective against tightly packed groups. My healer uses level 45 foh (non maxed hammers) to deal about 7k impact and 8k bolts. He clears the way to sammy alot faster than my necro with amp and a 25k merc + holy armour. The single target damage is low but in tight areas is it amazingly strong.

I'll fraps something later showing what i mean, its great for undead trash areas, it blows for anything else (like boses). I usualy switch to healing my merc or using 11k hammers to kill bosses.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:37 pm 
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tightly packed undead groups* making it more situational than light fury. i have no doubts its good in the areas described. Im just entertaining the idea of a dedicated fister, and might be bias since i used to mess around with a fister on bnet as my duler years and years ago. kids b so mad before they got their sorbs ;(

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Ok if its buffed it is way to powerful, if the bolts are changed to damage demons etc too its still to powerful, if the impact is buffed its to powerful on bosses. There aint really much you can do with it. A fister can use 1 point conc and hammers if they choose, there is the tele + Merc option to just rape everything too.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:27 pm 
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if its buffed how does it automatically become way too powerful other than in the undead areas where its already wtf rape?

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:39 pm 
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Give me a 40k instant hit ranged spell for 60pts so i can also max prayer and get gg's double heal on a class with huge def the best block and high base hp plox it wouldnt be op i swear

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:42 pm 
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if you would read above, i stated that it wouldnt even hit 35k.
if pts are an issue an additional synergy could be added for foh to make it 80 pt. there is a huge chance that this won't even be implemented based on the fact that its too much work but that doesnt mean we cant entertain a discussion about it. there surely can be a way to have foh as a main skill instead of just a situational second taht preforms very well in some areas.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:08 am 
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Zikur wrote:
if its buffed how does it automatically become way too powerful other than in the undead areas where its already wtf rape?


so you want it to be even more OP and to be turned into skill that can nuke bosses from far away?

Theres nothing wrong with FoH, I have one of them (pretty much) and he is the highest pally on the realm, he rapes hell azmo and belial easily, clears down to them in an insanely short time and he hasnt even got hammer synergie maxed (10 points iirc).

what more do you want?

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:18 am 
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my point is that increasing its effectiveness in undead packed areas isnt going to change anything. it already rapes those areas, it cant rape them even more. even if you toned the skill down you could still just spam it and clear undead rooms toggle redemption fill ur mana continue

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:54 am 
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I dont think there is any problem with the skill as it is. Its a single target hit against non undeads so it will obviously clear trash slower, you can use 1 point conc and hammers to deal more than enough damage to non undeads to clear trash. the fact that once you have namelocked a boss its always gonna hit means it will be crazy op on bosses if the impact is buffed too much. by comparison to fireball etc, it takes time for the missile to leave your fingertips and hit the boss and they can be dodged, foh cant.

any buff to the impact would have to be small, like maybe 10%

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:19 am 
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tbh i thought i mentioned the part about namelocking being a problem as boss fights would just be get in Line of sight and hold down the mouse button. the other problem with it being a tk like skill is that tk is synergized by cb which is amazing at clearing trash, better than hammers. however most of the time hammers are also better at killing bosses. i dont know what im arguing for really. what kind of dmg does ur healer do?

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:45 am 
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heres foh damage, hammers damage (well below maxed) and damage with 1 point conc running. Could be alot higher if I wanted the impact to be higher (maxed hammers) and used 19 combat skillers instead of def auras.


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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:39 am 
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if u have a 1000+mana + medi u can spam foh without ur mana going down

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:24 am 
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yeh, my sef bo puts me over 1k iirc.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:46 pm 

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Have you made a specialized FoHer and actually geared it?


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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:29 pm 
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no, I could gear him as an foher i guess. The impact damage would be low but the bolts would be high. I assume its fine since this low level foh healer clears undeads at a good rate and can kill azmo and belial with it.
FoH kinda goes with a healer build so might aswell max prayer along with it anyway I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:31 pm 
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Man Fist needs no buff . Its all about gear for the dmg and the fact that you can lock a target is pretty sick. i have almost no problem taking down most boss's with Fist it just takes time with my healer. Fist Hato Purity= win if u need to drink mana there is something wrong 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:49 pm 
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The initial hit is still lacking =/

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:22 am 
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not really since it can be used from a long way away and will never miss

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:25 pm 
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If say you have 18 combats and all of the other great charms for skill and all syns max Fist dmg should be around 18 k whats wrong with that dmg at end game? nothing at all. See before you try to balance skills you need to look at what else is out there in the game such a skill gc's they add alot now if you buff Fist so it does more dmg then your making the build imbalanced. And one other thing you guys do also know that Fist is unblockable even to a boss 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:22 am 
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while I agree 18k fist is extremely powerful given the range and no chance to miss, 18 combat gcs with heart and anni seem to be what is tipping the scales in that situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:51 am 
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18k Resistable damage doesn't compare to some of the other skills out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:55 am 
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thats true too but I wouldnt want to argue ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:59 am 
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LmT wrote:
18k Resistable damage doesn't compare to some of the other skills out there.


Erm, im afraid all damage is resistable, use templars with mag facets and uber diamonds in the weap and you can get resistances to 0 easy enough. Look at bone necro's for a start. They deal all mag damage however they dont have the range of foh and it takes time for the slow spirits to auto hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:52 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
LmT wrote:
18k Resistable damage doesn't compare to some of the other skills out there.


Erm, im afraid all damage is resistable, use templars with mag facets and uber diamonds in the weap and you can get resistances to 0 easy enough. Look at bone necro's for a start. They deal all mag damage however they dont have the range of foh and it takes time for the slow spirits to auto hit.


Magic damage also doesn't have the luxury of LR and Conv.

And the BIS Hammerdin/FoH items don't have magic pierce/%dmg like most of the other caster gear.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:57 pm 
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%mag pierce is on facets, templars and diamonds in weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:08 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
LmT wrote:
18k Resistable damage doesn't compare to some of the other skills out there.


Erm, im afraid all damage is resistable, use templars with mag facets and uber diamonds in the weap and you can get resistances to 0 easy enough. Look at bone necro's for a start. They deal all mag damage however they dont have the range of foh and it takes time for the slow spirits to auto hit.


Erm, Bone Necros also do much more damage than FoH is capable of.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:39 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
%mag pierce is on facets, templars and diamonds in weapons.


I said gear, not socketables. And Enigma is still BIS for Hammer/FoH (%life, %DR, tele, max block/strbug without retarded godly crafts/rares trumps the damage any day). I could see an argument for templars in PvP and a few fights, but in PvM hammers + tank build = god.

Unless you have a +3/3 scepter(rare/magic), I dont see diamonds making a huge difference.

I build for survival so I guess I wouldn't put facets in my CoA or Dragonscale.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:05 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
LmT wrote:
18k Resistable damage doesn't compare to some of the other skills out there.


Erm, im afraid all damage is resistable, use templars with mag facets and uber diamonds in the weap and you can get resistances to 0 easy enough. Look at bone necro's for a start. They deal all mag damage however they dont have the range of foh and it takes time for the slow spirits to auto hit.


Erm, Bone Necros also do much more damage than FoH is capable of.


But missiles take time to hit the target, can be avoided etc. foh cant and you can cast from alot further away.

LmT wrote:
I said gear, not socketables. And Enigma is still BIS for Hammer/FoH (%life, %DR, tele, max block/strbug without retarded godly crafts/rares trumps the damage any day). I could see an argument for templars in PvP and a few fights, but in PvM hammers + tank build = god.

Unless you have a +3/3 scepter(rare/magic), I dont see diamonds making a huge difference.

I build for survival so I guess I wouldn't put facets in my CoA or Dragonscale.


You cant have it both ways, you can either build as a tank or a cannon. If you want higher damage you will have to lose a little survivability and visa versa. Its the same of all non melee builds

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:43 pm 
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Then who the hell cares if FoH gets a buff and cannons get slapped around? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:01 pm 
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pierce is a buff already. Instead of changing skills that already work, something should be done with the useless skills IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:18 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
LmT wrote:
18k Resistable damage doesn't compare to some of the other skills out there.


Erm, im afraid all damage is resistable, use templars with mag facets and uber diamonds in the weap and you can get resistances to 0 easy enough. Look at bone necro's for a start. They deal all mag damage however they dont have the range of foh and it takes time for the slow spirits to auto hit.


Also, IIRC, magic resistance cannot pierce into the negatives, another thing elemental damage has over it (besides the fact that most elemental skills easily do 3x the damage on FoH)

Fact of the matter is, a dedicated Fister sucks. You have no real aura that benefits your skill and your damage is PATHETIC. Not only is your damage pathetic, you're using a 1 target skill in about 75% of situations.

All I've seen in this discussion is: FoH is fine because Hammers are wtfpwn.
That's like saying Wake of Inferno is fine because Firetrapper is still a viable build.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:15 am 
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But FoH and wake of inferno are still used. FoH can be usefull on Darkness or any other teleporting/running boss. I use wake of inferno against the really high life stuff once the surrounding enemys are dead, I find it quite usefull but It has problems I agree.

Elemental res can be taken into negatives yeh. Magic resist is alot lower and immunes are anly seen once or twice in hell.
elementl skills that do 3x the damage of foh are usualy sorc skills. They dont have the benefit of high life gains, easy max block and party friendly auras.

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Fact of the matter is, a dedicated Fister sucks. You have no real aura that benefits your skill and your damage is PATHETIC. Not only is your damage pathetic, you're using a 1 target skill in about 75% of situations.


Have you played a pally with FoH as his main attack? I have, and he was played all the way to 101. He is 10 points short of the hammer synergie but even without it he still solo's hell bosses just fine, totaly RAPES undead stuff and has every aura possible to switch between depending on who I'm partied with. If I decide to run hell diab alone I just use a dwarf star and run fire res most of the time and run around taking no damage, killing champ marilyths with foh/hammers and FoH destroys all the undead in there. With a res aura and a sorb ring you can stand tanking hell diab all day (and all elemental bosses). The fact is, even as a ranged build he can still tank bosses so you get the best of both worlds. Make FoH stronger and you will make the build way overpowered.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:50 am 
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Darkness has the highest magic resist for a boss. Try FoHing him. It's the most annoying thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:21 am 
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thats when pierce on gear comes into play...

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:14 pm 
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And that's when you realize magic res cannot be negative :(

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:24 pm 
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I'd be happy enough to just hear that magic resist from gear works with FOH. Last I recall it was glitchy and not working so well.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:13 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Have you played a pally with FoH as his main attack? I have, and he was played all the way to 101. He is 10 points short of the hammer synergie but even without it he still solo's hell bosses just fine, totaly RAPES undead stuff and has every aura possible to switch between depending on who I'm partied with. If I decide to run hell diab alone I just use a dwarf star and run fire res most of the time and run around taking no damage, killing champ marilyths with foh/hammers and FoH destroys all the undead in there. With a res aura and a sorb ring you can stand tanking hell diab all day (and all elemental bosses). The fact is, even as a ranged build he can still tank bosses so you get the best of both worlds. Make FoH stronger and you will make the build way overpowered.


Honestly, I'll take your word for it then. All of my arguments are based upon theory craft, which we all know to be an incredibly unreliable source of information. Since you have first hand knowledge and relevant examples to back it up, I have no problem conceding that I'm most likely wrong.

Curious though, in a previous post, you mentioned focusing on skills that are useless. What skills do you consider useless? I have a couple in mind, but I'm curious to know yours.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:59 pm 
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hmm, just from what I have seen from the skills personally.

Pally:
Sacrafice
Blessed Aim
Vengance (prior to the synergie boost but probs still not great)

Sorc:
Firewall
hydra (too weak)
(Possibly chain light)

Sin:
Cobra strike

Zon:
Strafe
Inner sight
(Passives need changed to require hard points for a decent return)

Barb:
Grim ward
Stun
(some war crys need changed like battle cry)
(masteries like iron skin, inc speed and natural res need to be changed to require a heavier investment for decent returns)

Nec:
Confure, attract and dim vision
(Other curses should need heavier investment for decent gains and cap at a lower%)
Mages
Bone Prison

Druid:
Solar vine (we have a nifty idea for this)
(SoB should require heavier investment for decent gains)

(Some skills are IMBA aura wise and skill wise. A few of us are putting together a list of things that could really do with being changed and will release a full list once we have spent a little more time on it).
What did you have in mind?

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:27 pm 
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I agree with the majority of your post. There are a lot of skills that are just kinda taking up space that could be turned into very cool supplemental or main damage skills. I also agree that a lot of the one point wonders should be revised to require more investment, that will lead to more variety in builds if you can do it right.

As far as Chain Lightning goes, I'd say it's completely viable. When I was playing with Ben (drhc) earlier in the HC ladder he built up a Chain Lit sorc for fun. Can't remember if he got to hell or not, but the way the build played, I can see if it got geared up it'd be a very viable build. The only unattractive thing is the fact that Lightning and Chain Lightning still retain that 1 minimum damage. Shit was cool though, played similar to a fireball sorc, just kinda hangin in the back and blowin' shit up. I'll have to remember to ask him if he had any real issues with the build.

I'd really like to see Wake of Inferno revised. Probably lower the damage significantly, remove the counter spiking of it, and allow it to be effected by -res. It would give Firetrappers a viable second trap vs. super uniques and bosses in combination with Fire Blast. It'd probably see a lot more use and make the build even more fun.

Shock Web definitely needs revisions too. I'm not exactly sure if the hit delay is hardcoded or what to do to fix it, but as is it's a pretty crappy skill. Not sure what to suggest that wouldn't be too powerful. I view it as a supplemental trap skill for a Lit trapper, not the main killing device.

This is a personal gripe, but I'd love to see Mindblast lose it's damn conversion. IMO, it's just incredibly annoying and removing it would make it a very cool AoE skill for a Mentalsin and balance the build out a bit more.

Venom could use revision, but honestly I think it's the lack of proper gear for the build. Getting on that topic, the lack of specialized gear gimps a lot of builds that would be otherwise very viable. In my opinion items need a huge overhaul as there are tons of useless items that are just basically taking up space.

Sorry most of my suggestions deal with Sin skills, but it's the class I've played most extensively.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:26 pm 
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item overhaul is on the proposed list also. I think switching the conversion over to psy hammer would be nice so you can pick the things (like archers etc) from the back row and kill the rest without slowing progress by converting 50% of the mob in the radius.

The low conversion duration is an issue for melees also if someone is using sob. Converted enemys still have the sob aura for a sec or 2 after they revert to hostile and that % thorns can 1 shot pretty much every single melee build.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:29 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
This is a personal gripe, but I'd love to see Mindblast lose it's damn conversion. IMO, it's just incredibly annoying and removing it would make it a very cool AoE skill for a Mentalsin and balance the build out a bit more.


This is probably the only thing I don't agree with. I'm a big fan of the conversion for it's safety features in hc. Currently I'm playing the mindsin in the naked group, so it shines a lot brighter in that situation than in a geared group. However, I still feel that it's a very powerful and underused tool. I think the problem is the mix between a utility skill and the build's source of AoE damage. I do enjoy the mindsins because they are a unique, fun build and would like to see a change to mindblast and an added skill to the build. Here's the idea I was thinking of:

- Keep Psychic Hammer as is.
- Change Mindblast to Conversion/KB/etc in a radius ONLY. Remove its damage. Keep it a 1 point skill that doesn't change in terms of conversion rate or radius, only mana costs (down for more skills). Adjust the conversion chance, radius, and conversion length accordingly. This way it can be used to gain you and your team enough time to move in and attack while the converts act as tanks. Remove it as a synergy of Psychic Hammer (to go on the added skill instead).
- Add an Aoe damage-only skill to the build. Not really sure exactly how my ideal skill would go, but something along the lines of either Meteor (hit followed by DoT damage) or a Chain lightning bounce would be my favorites personally. This would synergize hammer and vice versa.

Shock Web does really blow. Was playing a friend's very godly-geared trapper (full of skillers), and even though it is not completely maxed or synergized, the damage it deals is serious poop.


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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:36 pm 
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25 frame NHD rapes it iirc. (could have that nhd wrong but i dont think i do.)

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:04 pm 
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Lol how did Fist turn into Mental synergys jking.
Conversion is such a great thing for hc man safty safty safty. I love my shadow masters conversion in hc allways have.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:41 pm 
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Asteroth wrote:
Lol how did Fist turn into Mental synergys jking.
Conversion is such a great thing for hc man safty safty safty. I love my shadow masters conversion in hc allways have.


Except... this mod is based upon SC. I've played HC, and it's starting to get ridiculous how HC players are always poppin' in "Hurr well on HC blah blah", it's really not that different.

Honestly, the people I played with on HC would tell me to NOT cast Shadow Master because the conversion causes so many issues. If you're that ballhugging on conversion, get an A2 Merc, theirs is actually good.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 7:18 pm 
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TBH, i hate the mind blast conversion. The low duration makes it a real pain if you have any auras in the party and it ruins the main aoe skillof the mentalsin. I'd rather see a decent length conversion added to psy hammer. If im playing a sin i dont use master at all unless im taking ona certain boss. The mb they cast screws up my kill speed and the converted enemys are not cleared away by my death sentrys.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:06 pm 

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Shadow master conversion blows because she uses it like a whore. It leaves way too many monsters around. At least with using mind blast yourself, you can control how much/what you convert, although that means needing to use psychic hammer (which I do very frequently even in mobs). It still doesn't deviate from the fact that conversion on the build's only AoE skill is dumb. It most definitely needs separation. I'd just like to keep conversion as an actual part of the build because it's a preference of mine, though if it lost it I wouldn't be totally heartbroken. DoD's idea (putting it on psychic) is definitely a great idea; you can keep using it as the DPS on bosses/champs that cannot be converted and keep yourself with an AoE mind blast to take care of trash without the annoyance of an actual convert. This also allows you to convert what you want.

PS. What was this topic originally about? :o


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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 8:42 pm 
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muleofal wrote:
tl;dr

PS. What was this topic originally about? :o


I agree with putting it on Psychic Hammer. It becomes a more targeted conversion, and that's very useful. But if you're going to make Psychic Hammer Mentalsin's boss killer, I'd change the damage or type of damage. To my understanding, Mind Blast was always better on bosses due to the fact it's all physical, therefore benefiting from amp fully instead of partially. Could be wrong though, I'd like to hear from someone who's got a mentalsin into hell (I always give up on mine due to lack of interest after awhile)

And this topic hasn't strayed TOO far, it's still primarily about changing skills we're unhappy with, but we may want to move this crap to a different topic to avoid confusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:20 pm 

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Abominae wrote:

But if you're going to make Psychic Hammer Mentalsin's boss killer, I'd change the damage or type of damage. To my understanding, Mind Blast was always better on bosses due to the fact it's all physical, therefore benefiting from amp fully instead of partially. Could be wrong though, I'd like to hear from someone who's got a mentalsin into hell (I always give up on mine due to lack of interest after awhile)


Yea same, mine usually gets into early-mid nightmare the furthest. I'm more of a melee guy anyways. I think psychic needs to gain a bit of separation from mind blast in terms of damage, or else it becomes a skill that's useless and only a damage synergy.


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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 3:43 am 
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my take on foh is this:

the skill is kind of a specialty skill. its part of the hammerdin build.
foh is better than hammers when:
-the target moves around like a headless chicken
-you are shooting densely packed undeads
-you are fighting something you are unable to tank, cast, run cast run.
-you absolutely need salvation

-magic does not work with it. (no modifiers at all for it)
-foh does not get a bonus against demons
-its damage is less than a lot of other skills
-its mana cost is a bit high, but this is a non issue later in the game

---overall i think its one of the best built skills in the entire game. compared to monsters i think its damage is right where it should be. however compared to the other endgame skills it IS lacking in comparison. i dont think foh is too weak (its probably the most balanced skill there is), just a lot of other things are too strong.


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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:26 pm 
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the problem is that it is seen as 'part of the hdin build' which itself is hugely powerful.
for the nt group i played an hdin. I have only ever had 1 hdin before and it didnt get played through the game and was made late in the ladder. only played it in norm and early nm, but its very powerful - interested to see if the res change fixes it to be on par with other classes untwinked.

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:28 am 
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-magic res works with foh

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 Post subject: Re: Fist of Heaven's damage.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:45 am 

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I have a mentalsin in act1 hell now, lvl 83. Damage is a sub par, but my equipment is also sub par. It is a very very safe build, which makes gameplay a bit boring. I am maxing both two shadows and death sentry, especially shadow master is a very good boss tank. I can probably solo most bosses, given enough time. I agree sm spams mind blast way too much, she basically tries to convert everyone. Removing conversion from mind blast could make this build more interesting.


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