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 Post subject: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:43 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:52 pm
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Is it possible to have an item that would allow you to be uncursable by Iron Maiden? If so I think it would be a cool item to have in-game. Obviously it would have to be on an item that isn't very powerful so to use it would be some kind of sacrifice. But I think it could be a useful item.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:44 pm 
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Sure, I will make it a weapon and give it 10-20 dmg. That should do it ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Theres already a weapon to use against Iron Maiden. Its called crushing blow.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:02 am 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Sure, I will make it a weapon and give it 10-20 dmg. That should do it ;)


definitely along the right lines

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Theres already a weapon to use against Iron Maiden. Its called crushing blow.


missed the point entirely


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:12 pm 

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Sugarbean wrote:
blue_myriddn wrote:
Sure, I will make it a weapon and give it 10-20 dmg. That should do it ;)


definitely along the right lines

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Theres already a weapon to use against Iron Maiden. Its called crushing blow.


missed the point entirely

both were pretty sarcastic lol, their points together = low damage weapon + crushing blow

or you could just get a ranged weapon on switch...

your answer to IM already exists lol

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:59 pm 
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dont see how i missed the point. Any low damage weapon is a counter to IM. There are also skills to counter IM like smite, zerk, vengance. I'd rather see the unused items be reworked around interesting builds or underpowered builds.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:20 pm 
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My guess would be because he was asking about an item and you gave him a mechanic.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:30 pm 
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there are plenty of weapons you can use. Ie any low damage rare or even a crushflange. :o

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:36 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
dont see how i missed the point. Any low damage weapon is a counter to IM. There are also skills to counter IM like smite, zerk, vengance. I'd rather see the unused items be reworked around interesting builds or underpowered builds.


Iron Maiden works vs smite I guess you didnt know. Also Smite isn't damage isn't dependent on your weapon damage. I can use a 1-2 Damage Cracked Short Sword and still do 20k+ Smite Damage on my Smiter... So that doesn't really work.

Zerk is great, works for Barbs.
Vengeance might work but I'm gonna throw out a guess and say that it won't be effective unless your char is built around it. Because clearly I'm talking about boss fights, since the number of non-bosses that Iron Maiden is low.


PureRage-DoD wrote:
there are plenty of weapons you can use. Ie any low damage rare or even a crushflange. :o


My zon can't use crushflange with Jab =/

I guess my point is that some characters like the Barb, have no problem getting around it while others like a smiter or a java have a hard time.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:45 pm 
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Yeah that is why you need a team...and multiple builds...

made an fclaw just for pi/ss bosses...buffed with chant (20k or so dmg from buff alone) 84k dmg i think atm...since its ele dmg i dont think im would hurt him much either as long as sob was near by.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Replace your amp for life tap.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:48 pm 

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IM is really the great equalizer for melee, without it you could jab your way to Sammy and rape him, just like Lorek bear would...just like we would do to almost every major boss in the game. As much as I hate the shit, (I wrote a whole post a while back about how much I hate it) it's a necessary evil for game balance imo. Everyone would just make a melee :P

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:50 pm 

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I know you said to put it on an item with low dmg Leah, btw. Was just commenting in general.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:12 pm 

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Bob908 wrote:
Yeah that is why you need a team...and multiple builds...

made an fclaw just for pi/ss bosses...buffed with chant (20k or so dmg from buff alone) 84k dmg i think atm...since its ele dmg i dont think im would hurt him much either as long as sob was near by.


I have in my "team" #1 sorc, #1 zon, #1 nec, #4 pal, #7 pal, #5 barb, #4 druid

I can kill anything I want.

I'm just talking about balancing some chars with an item (I never said weapon) just an item of whatever kind that would give a melee characters a little more balance across the board.

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I have no idea what your talking about.


Lorek B wrote:
IM is really the great equalizer for melee, without it you could jab your way to Sammy and rape him, just like Lorek bear would...just like we would do to almost every major boss in the game. As much as I hate the shit, (I wrote a whole post a while back about how much I hate it) it's a necessary evil for game balance imo. Everyone would just make a melee :P


Well personally I wouldn't make just melee chars if there was no IM because they're not known for mass killing. I do think its a necessary evil for the game too. I'm not saying take it out. Just make a different way to balance it for melee char's that don't have Berserk, for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:26 pm 

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I totally understand your point, although I doubt it would ever be put it on anything but a weapon because it would be too OP...ie. just wear your "non-IM amulet" with the eth tomb reaver, the new 95 pike, or 2k dmg thundermaul...bam! Point blank, it would just be a god item. How could you make this balanced?

I'd thought of something, have a new zone like some other mmorpgs have in which godly items drop. This could be one of those, just make it so rare that there couldn't be a chance for like more than two on a server, or code it to where no more than 2 can possibly even drop. Would be fresh incentive to make a new zone and to have people explore it. Guess it would take a while to program, idk really.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:30 pm 

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I won't go into any real detail about it, but this would still break the game. If there was any sort of counter ITEM for Iron Maiden, I think it should only be like a -50% curse duration (probably too much, still sounds broken even), or some sort of thing that halves the IM damage returns. Though, honestly I'd rather there be no change, as when there's an item like that out there, you have the possibility of swingingly mindlessly without much worry. That's something that could be in vanilla, but shouldn't be in Hell Unleashed.
Sugarbean wrote:
Well personally I wouldn't make just melee chars if there was no IM because they're not known for mass killing. I do think its a necessary evil for the game too. I'm not saying take it out. Just make a different way to balance it for melee char's that don't have Berserk, for example.
Amazon = get a bow for switch if you are jabber
Assassin = there are plenty of elemental attacks
Barbarian = Berserk or throwing attacks
Druid = um.... Shock Wave spam? watch ur swings, u can take some hits
Necromancer = goes without saying
Paladin = Vengeance / 1 point Smite
Sorceress = goes without saying

I see Iron Maiden as a chance to think outside the box. IMO it shouldn't be messed with.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:27 am 
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Use the existing counters for IM and any curse:
a wisp projector, a druid partner ( yeah, druids are items :lol: ) or anything else with SoBarbs.

and play with some little brain, dont rush mindlessly to foes. If ur facing IM bosses, single smite with caution.

Raw strenght < smart movements, even for melee.
IMO if you want easy games with easy fixes to any game problem, and basing your game to just gain exp, you should try "pokemon".


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:30 am 

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x3n0x1d3 wrote:
I won't go into any real detail about it, but this would still break the game. If there was any sort of counter ITEM for Iron Maiden, I think it should only be like a -50% curse duration (probably too much, still sounds broken even), or some sort of thing that halves the IM damage returns. Though, honestly I'd rather there be no change, as when there's an item like that out there, you have the possibility of swingingly mindlessly without much worry. That's something that could be in vanilla, but shouldn't be in Hell Unleashed.
Sugarbean wrote:
Well personally I wouldn't make just melee chars if there was no IM because they're not known for mass killing. I do think its a necessary evil for the game too. I'm not saying take it out. Just make a different way to balance it for melee char's that don't have Berserk, for example.
Amazon = get a bow for switch if you are jabber
Assassin = there are plenty of elemental attacks
Barbarian = Berserk or throwing attacks
Druid = um.... Shock Wave spam? watch ur swings, u can take some hits
Necromancer = goes without saying
Paladin = Vengeance / 1 point Smite
Sorceress = goes without saying

I see Iron Maiden as a chance to think outside the box. IMO it shouldn't be messed with.


A melee Assassin won't be able to spare enough points to use a elemental skill to kill a boss or even damage it at any real value.
Barbarians do just fine
Druids that are melee usually attack so fast and do so much dmg that the few hits they can take go by faster then they can stop clicking. Shock Wave doesn't work on bosses which is mainly what I'm talking about since the number of regular monsters that IM are insignificant.
Necromancers aren't melee capable.
Paladin Vengeance won't do enough damage unless you have an entire gear swap? But then you would probably die anyways because you wouldn't be setup for it.
Paladin smite works with Iron Maiden, which means you get raped in 1-2 hits if your good. Like my smiter. And I'll say again, smite damage isn't based off of weapon damage so a low damage crushing blow item doesnt work.
Melee sorc uses fire damage so they're fine.

I do like your idea of half IM curse duration or lowering the damage return. Or maybe something that will just take your health to like... 50 or 10 or 1. That way you don't die from the IM but anything that touches you will kill you.


tonykantos wrote:
Use the existing counters for IM and any curse:
a wisp projector, a druid partner ( yeah, druids are items :lol: ) or anything else with SoBarbs.

and play with some little brain, dont rush mindlessly to foes. If ur facing IM bosses, single smite with caution.

Raw strenght < smart movements, even for melee.
IMO if you want easy games with easy fixes to any game problem, and basing your game to just gain exp, you should try "pokemon".



Sigh, everyone is completely missing the point when I say that I don't want it to be overpowered, taken away, made easy, etc. I'm only talking about balance. Because some characters have much much easier ways of dealing with iron maiden and others struggle very hard even though they are very similar. IE: Any Barb vs a Smiter or a Jabber. Do you still not see my point here? And I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have no problem killing anything in this game so I don't need any words of wisdom that tells me to fight with my brains and not my bronze, etc.

Why is everyone in this mod so resistant to change? This isn't bnet.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:44 am 
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Because you are trying to promote a change back to an old state here, were melee ruled everything and nothing else was used.

It is you who are missing the point. Trouble with smite? Then use a lower dmg shield. Trouble with fury, then ony use feral and maul, maul has no problem. Just make sure you click everytime instead of holding the button down.
All other melee pala builds, use smite with cb.
Assassin, use blade fury.
Jabber, get a lower dmg one hand jav with cb and use that.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:54 am 

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Sugarbean wrote:
Why is everyone in this mod so resistant to change? This isn't bnet.
It's just that no matter how you look at it, there are already plenty of counters for Iron Maiden, and it could be extremely overpowered to have an item that made it even less of a problem. It's possible you might just be looking at the problem wrong... Maybe you want a certain boss to not use Iron Maiden? Though, even then, you may get the same responses.... :/

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:59 am 

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Utter wrote:
Because you are trying to promote a change back to an old state here, were melee ruled everything and nothing else was used.

It is you who are missing the point. Trouble with smite? Then use a lower dmg shield. Trouble with fury, then ony use feral and maul, maul has no problem. Just make sure you click everytime instead of holding the button down.
All other melee pala builds, use smite with cb.
Assassin, use blade fury.
Jabber, get a lower dmg one hand jav with cb and use that.



So having an item that made your health go to 1 instead of 0 would make everyone in this game say OMFG thats so godly I'm going to stop making any elemental characters and just go melee. Now it's just too easy for melees?

This is a suggestion thread and yes in my very first post I was suggesting some type of IM immunity but it's evolved from that, from other peoples input (as a suggestion post is intended) to come up with a better idea. Throwing in a little balance isn't going to eliminate elementals....


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:04 am 

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x3n0x1d3 wrote:
Sugarbean wrote:
Why is everyone in this mod so resistant to change? This isn't bnet.
It's just that no matter how you look at it, there are already plenty of counters for Iron Maiden, and it could be extremely overpowered to have an item that made it even less of a problem. It's possible you might just be looking at the problem wrong... Maybe you want a certain boss to not use Iron Maiden? Though, even then, you may get the same responses.... :/



All the bosses that use IM use it because they are hard bosses and they deserve to be hard and very difficult to kill. But I think its unbalanced for many characters to have to struggle so hard to survive through it compared to other similarly built characters.

I think an item of some kind that would allow you to have 1 life left after being IM'd instead of dieing wouldnt be overpowered. Does anyone disagree with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:12 am 
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Then you are just suggesting a useless item as no one will use it. Lower you health to 1 in hc, yea, no thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:24 am 

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Utter wrote:
Then you are just suggesting a useless item as no one will use it. Lower you health to 1 in hc, yea, no thanks.


So your saying people that play HC don't use melee characters...? Obviously if you have said item equipped and you have IM on, attack, hurt yourself down to 1,393 life then your fine.

The item I am suggesting wouldn't just make your life 1 on equip and you walk around with 1 life... It would only allow IM to take your life to 1 so you wouldn't die from hurting yourself. Clearly having a safety net of 1 life instead of a death net would be a useful item on HC.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:54 pm 
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going to 1 life on any boss is still pretty much a death unless you are lucky. Any tiny patch of fire or minor counter and you are dead. People on hc just switch to one of the options for avoiding IM death.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:27 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
going to 1 life on any boss is still pretty much a death unless you are lucky. Any tiny patch of fire or minor counter and you are dead. People on hc just switch to one of the options for avoiding IM death.


well then we agree it wouldn't be overpowered and might give a character a small chance to survive if they're lucky. Say they're being healed and are only at 1 life for a split second and live, or have a chance to pop a couple rejuvs and live. ''pretty much a death'' > ''death'' and without being overpowered I would say it's not a bad idea. Not saying it should be implemented but makes for a good suggestion imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:50 pm 
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the only reason reducing your life to 1 would be beneficial is if you are god-moding. absolutely retarted suggestion. Your problem has been answered. If you cant figure out a way to smite through IM you should delete your pally.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:23 pm 
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I've never had any problem with IM personally. I dont think I lost a char to IM since my very first season here.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:41 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I've never had any problem with IM personally. I dont think I lost a char to IM since my very first season here.


Zikur wrote:
the only reason reducing your life to 1 would be beneficial is if you are god-moding. absolutely retarted suggestion. Your problem has been answered. If you cant figure out a way to smite through IM you should delete your pally.


Sigh, well if you guys have been reading this at all I've listed several times that I have no problem killing anything in this mod. I've been suggestion this from a balance standpoint, not as a "crying about IM cause my char(s) suck" which is apparently what you've comprehended out of this. Maybe you didn't read very much of the previous posts.

Zikur, I keep hearing of people using God Mode? I've never once in my life even heard of such a cheat being of available to Diablo II. If there was, why would someone with God Mode benefit from having 1 life if they can't die anyways? If you have God Mode on it doesn't matter if you have 20,000 life or 1 because if you can't die then what difference does it make? Also, by definition it's impossible to "smite through" Iron Maiden unless you do about 2 damage. In which case you'd be a terrible smiter to begin with. I think you mean to say something along the lines of "smite around" Iron Maiden.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:52 pm 

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Sugarbean wrote:
Sigh, well if you guys have been reading this at all I've listed several times that I have no problem killing anything in this mod. I've been suggestion this from a balance standpoint, not as a "crying about IM cause my char(s) suck" which is apparently what you've comprehended out of this. Maybe you didn't read very much of the previous posts.
And a few of us have even already posted counters to Iron Maiden for each class. The problem with your suggestion is that there is already many counters to Iron Maiden, and if you can negate its effect even more, it won't be balanced. In my personal opinion, some of these counters should be removed and Iron Maiden should have more of an impact than it does now. :P

This mod is supposed to be hard.

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Last edited by x3n0x1d3 on Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:53 pm 
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im not saying you have any problem with IM, im saying, as a whole, iron maiden is easily counterable now. being amped is alot worse IMO. Amp + nado from hell darkness is alot more nasty than a stray IM.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:56 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
im not saying you have any problem with IM, im saying, as a whole, iron maiden is easily counterable now. being amped is alot worse IMO. Amp + nado from hell darkness is alot more nasty than a stray IM.



I agree completely. That shit will rape you a new asshole. But my point is that everyone has a fair disadvantage vs Hell Darknesses' asshole raping. Not all melees have the same situation vs IM.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:00 pm 
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just drop your damage down. everyone has that option. CB plays a much more important roll than an extra 10kish phys damage. back in the day when it was very very easy to get curse immune, the only thing anyone ever built was fury druids. Now you cant get CI without using a shield so your damage is automatically down if you usualy use 2 handers.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:07 am 
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If you drop your dmg down 10k as rage has suggested you can surely 'smite through' IM. It is really not that big of a deal. Since most of your dmg dealth through smite is from cb, it doesn't matter how much dmg you deal.
Godmode can't stop 1 hit kills, which is the ONLY reason I can see for an item stopping you at 1 hp. The chances of anyone legitimately surviving going down to 1 hp are so slim, it would be a waste of effort and only another tool for the godmoders.
also, there is always the option of going CI - if curses bother you so much.
There are already balanced counters available, if you already have 'no problem killing anything in this mod' then I don't see how making it easier would 'balance' anything. If anything you are suggesting it is too easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:44 pm 

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What are everyone's thoughts on the idea of IM being ineffective until a melee skill that is already in effect is done with? (if it is cast on you while you are already swinging) i.e. Zeal, Whirlwind, Fend

I imagine someone will say this is overpowered or unbalanced, but if you say this, please state your reasoning. (also, I'm unsure if this is possible to change or not)

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:12 pm 
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Most IM cast by bosses (maybe all except at baals minions?) is counters and will therefore only be cast while you are swinging. Thus you will never have that cast on you while you are ww'ing, zealing etc. So it would be OP.

Ofc you could get cursed by others, mercs, summons attacking. Could balance it out a bit but now enough imo.

Just clone berserk and replace impale with it. There, jabber done.


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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:33 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:03 am
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Sorry Utter, was pretty drunk last night.

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Last edited by Lorek B on Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Question/Suggestion for Melee Item
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Lorek B wrote:
Please stop acting like God for once and admit some things aren't right, even if Sugarbean isn't right. Get off your god status man. All I'm asking is maybe you listen to a few things.

Assuming this is directed at me?
Im is fine as it is. All classes have a way to deal with it. A jabber could use a low dmg cb javelin (what I'm gonna use at Baal and such).
Impale could be removed in favor of something useful though, like berserk. But that's a Jabber suggestion, not a melee item suggestion.


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