Login | Register


All times are UTC - 5 hours


It is currently Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:12 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:19 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:43 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Wisconsin
It's why I came here in the first place.

Beef it up again. Bosses spawn at 6, monsters spawn at 6 too, why not. Can keep normal easy, but nightmare and hell should be exactly what the description says. Put variables back on items for ed, skills, etc... Some how make more items usable again. There are so many items out there that no one ever wants or uses. Or while beefing up the game, beef up some of these items. (example tal armor, azurewrath, basically anything high level that is never asked for in the trade forums) Decrease drop rates. Drop the damage on poison, hell baal shouldn't take just a minute to kill. Turn flags back on. Make more flags. Have large charms actually give you something useful, those suck so bad its unreal. I'm not talking about the +5 str/dex, but man in hell I have stopped even picking them up. They are useless, the best one I have ever found was in nightmare and have +6 resists on it. Is it possible to make more item's only 1 per character (or 2 per char so your merc can wear what u wear as well. This would possibly help fight against pick-it for higher items. Just some thoughts, not solutions, thoughts.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:28 am 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
its why most of us came here, apparently it was too hard for alot of people before :roll:

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:23 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
make the game harder, but then give me stronger items so that I can complete the game easier.

Which way you want it? Challenging or easy?

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:25 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:51 am
Posts: 34
crew82 wrote:
Some how make more items usable again. There are so many items out there that no one ever wants or uses. Or while beefing up the game, beef up some of these items.

He said only buffing those ~unused.

I agree the game should be as hard as before in hell... and I used to struggle. But characters builds should be more balanced.

That's why the HU1.16 was my favorite version of this mod : it was possible to solo most of the game with almost any char, there was no need to make a MF char like on Bnet, and like the actual HU.
Now, why some builds like Hammerdins and Poison necros can ~solo the game while some others can't ?
Also I think mercs should die quickier at bosses (by increasing the damage taken from bosses) and their damage should be lowered to bosses, so easy combos like tele+amp can't be exploited. I'm sure suggestions like "decrease the drop rate" would vanish after that.

I have a feeling that some drop rates may have been lowered; Dunno if it's just me, perhaps bad luck, but charms used to have better mods, now they're creepy... Runes seem harder to drop too (?). Do drop rates have been touched ?

I also feel the game is like moving to the Bnet style : easier game, easier and faster rushings, and maybe longer MF runs and more tradings.
Most of us came here for a difficult game yes, and some of us came here also because of the incredibly low drops rates on Bnet.
More bosses fights less MFings. And more characters balances.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:11 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:58 am
Posts: 90
Location: Székesfehérvár, Hungary
I agree with crew82 and Tsume. I try HU because it was challenging, but now after the lastest update I can solo normal even with my "fantastic skills" and I do fine in nightmare with most chars. The mod should be harder, more challenging (especially in normal). Turn back on quest flags, add lvl requirments, decrease dmg on normal weapons, etc... like it was before 1.21. With the latest patch HU became too easy, we need HU to be really Hell Unleashed.

_________________
Roses are red, violets are blue
This poem should rhyme, but it doesn't.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:16 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
Tsume wrote:
He said only buffing those ~unused.


Guess what would happen if he used some of those unused items? BAM! Game is harder. Problem solved.

Or how about this, when was the last time he want down in to Mephisto's abyss or the other special areas in A5? There are plenty of ways to make HU more challenging if you want a more challenging experience. As a bonus, you don't even have to wait for Soulmancer to make a single code change.

More take action yourself, less wait for someone else to do it for you = win.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
How about balancing the builds of characters. Most builds aren't even used. Lightning javelin amazon, both elemental bow zons, all summoners aren't that good against bosses end game, elemental sin, dragon claw sin, bone necro, frenzy barb, elemental druids and so on...

There's a few very OP builds which friggin' EVERYONE uses, a few average ones, and the rest suck. Don't have to make the game harder, just make the OP builds not OP. Reduce their damage. Reduce poison necros damage. Make bows drain durability again. Etc...

Also, @Blue:

Having to do work myself in order to make the game more challenging is so obviously not going to work.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:21 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
you suggest equiping your char badly to make the game harder? that is some pretty poor advice. Ie. you find a ravenlore on your fbite druid but to keep the game challenging you choose to use biggins bonet. Why use that eth tomb reaver you just got on the way to hell baal when you have najs staff GFG :shock:

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:23 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
"Make game harder It's why I came here in the first place."

You want the game to be harder? You can make it harder.

Honestly though, I think most of you are just blowin smoke out of your ass and don't really want it harder. If you did, you would just make it harder on your own.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:24 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
blue_myriddn wrote:
"Make game harder It's why I came here in the first place."

You want the game to be harder? You can make it harder.

Honestly though, I think most of you are just blowin smoke out of your ass and don't really want it harder. If you did, you would just make it harder on your own.


Then why are you bothering to reply? Leave the discussion.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:32 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
blue_myriddn wrote:
"Make game harder It's why I came here in the first place."

You want the game to be harder? You can make it harder.

Honestly though, I think most of you are just blowin smoke out of your ass and don't really want it harder. If you did, you would just make it harder on your own.


The mod is supposed to be hard, that is what it is advertised as. It's rediculous the number of players who have just started this season and within 1 week are at level 99 with full endgame equip and going on about how easy it is. The mod is a joke compared to what it was in the past, thats a simple fact and everyone knows it. Dropping the difficulty to cater to new players is a cop out. They are here for a challenge, what they get is a supposedly hard mod they can cake walk in no time and leave since they have seen everything in the mod after a week or 2. :roll:

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:38 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:58 am
Posts: 90
Location: Székesfehérvár, Hungary
Yeah, we could make the game harder for ourselves, don't use good items, like uniques, sets, crafts, rares, runewords.
Honestly I think HU should be a game where you could have everything for your char(s), and even then you have to use all of your skills and knowledge just to stay alive and maybe have the outcome in your favor (for ex. at smaller bosses and up). Something like it was before.

Edit: oh, and yes it is a joke now.

_________________
Roses are red, violets are blue
This poem should rhyme, but it doesn't.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:03 am
Posts: 97
Quote:
How about balancing the builds of characters. Most builds aren't even used. Lightning javelin amazon, both elemental bow zons, all summoners aren't that good against bosses end game, elemental sin, dragon claw sin, bone necro, frenzy barb, elemental druids and so on...


Huh? My fire trapper rapes, so does lightning trapper, even more so. I duoed wsk all the way to guardian in a 5 spawn game with just one other light trapper, and did it easily. But I can't answer about the elemental bow zons as I only know of one. And you probably have a good point, but I think some of these characters might be underplayed simply because they're not niche.

_________________
___________________________
"I ponder whether romantic relationships are really just handed down to us as forms of divine retribution in disguise."-Eric Watts


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:07 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:53 am
Posts: 212
I play mod because I like the Gear. I don't care if its hard or not. For me hard is using that shit gear b.net has to offer. Guess we all have are own ideas as to what we want.

_________________
ISO - 6-6 Poison offering Jah, PnB Gc offering Jah, Pcombat Gc offering Ber, Warcry Gc offering Ber, Defensive Gc offering Sur, Elemental Gc offering Sur.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
Lorek B wrote:
Quote:
How about balancing the builds of characters. Most builds aren't even used. Lightning javelin amazon, both elemental bow zons, all summoners aren't that good against bosses end game, elemental sin, dragon claw sin, bone necro, frenzy barb, elemental druids and so on...


Huh? My fire trapper rapes, so does lightning trapper, even more so. I duoed wsk all the way to guardian in a 5 spawn game with just one other light trapper, and did it easily. But I can't answer about the elemental bow zons as I only know of one. And you probably have a good point, but I think some of these characters might be underplayed simply because they're not niche.


I was more meaning the elemental melee sin. :P

And yes, trappers are viable. However dtail is still far stronger than them.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:48 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:03 am
Posts: 97
Ah, didn't know you meant kicker, but dtail is really buggy vs phys immunes and it doesn't have near the range of traps. I also believe I am doing more dmg than dtail, but I'd have to double check on that with someone with full gear + skillers. But I guess I am detracting from the post.

_________________
___________________________
"I ponder whether romantic relationships are really just handed down to us as forms of divine retribution in disguise."-Eric Watts


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:02 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 49
I also agree that the game shows sides of regular bnet.

With turning flags off, it is really taking away from the point of this mod. (Is there a way to set it, so a character has to do every quest before entering to a different act ?)

I would also love to see ed%'s on items differ.

Example an ETH GrandFather Sword falls, however it may have ED between 200-500. Or something like that (i have no idea of actual). It gives the bonus of seeing what the %'s are, and differentiates between good lvl 95 uniques and poor lvl 95 uniques.

Could do something to the extent of this with most uniques.

again, just ideas.

Funny with the large charms tho, they are extrememly pointless as of now.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
r4tm wrote:
I also agree that the game shows sides of regular bnet.

With turning flags off, it is really taking away from the point of this mod. (Is there a way to set it, so a character has to do every quest before entering to a different act ?)

I would also love to see ed%'s on items differ.

Example an ETH GrandFather Sword falls, however it may have ED between 200-500. Or something like that (i have no idea of actual). It gives the bonus of seeing what the %'s are, and differentiates between good lvl 95 uniques and poor lvl 95 uniques.

Could do something to the extent of this with most uniques.

again, just ideas.

Funny with the large charms tho, they are extrememly pointless as of now.


I agree. I heartily dislike how 90% of runewords and uniques have zero variation. Where's the fun in that?


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:27 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
I know who I blame for the shitty difficulty of the supposed "hard mod". less incapable players whispering in terrys ear IMO :mrgreen:

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:57 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 971
Make the game harder.
Make the items currently not used useable - think of the popular builds for each class it could benefit and specialize the item. Here's a question, why the fuck does the bone necro wand have -poison resist?
Add variables to most of the items that are currently most sought after - it's stupid they're always the best of the best and you'd create a better economy. Less rich players could access the low 95s while richer players would seek the perfects.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:29 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
PureRage-DoD wrote:
I know who I blame for the shitty difficulty of the supposed "hard mod". less incapable players whispering in terrys ear IMO :mrgreen:


Trollin for another argument now that I am ignoring your other post?

His changes had nothing to do with me. I don't chat with Terry.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:58 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
got you posting though :lol:

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:02 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
PureRage-DoD wrote:
got you posting though :lol:


har - I think i was happier when I wasn't posting and was building images instead. Crap work has gotten in the way of that though, so I am stuck just poppin on the forums instead of doing more interesting things.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:14 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 49
another thing with uniques that would be fun/rewarding...

Example dscale which has 3 open sockets...

Have a variation of sockets on the shield... so sometimes it will have 1-3. You could do this with a variety of items as well.

any thoughts ? or is this not available to implement?


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:16 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
I always liked variability in items.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:30 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 971
I wouldn't go as far as 1-3, more like 2-4 or something similar. Balancing the variability of the items is generally not the hard part - make the perfect versions slightly stronger than the current versions but the variability of them big enough so that generally only a few perfects will exist.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 734
Angel wrote:
make the perfect versions slightly stronger than the current versions but the variability of them big enough so that generally only a few perfects will exist.


and this quote is exactly what is wrong with the difficulty of this mod.

the items are one of the biggest reasons of the easiness of this mod. most of the high end ones are completely too overpowered. dscale doesnt need to get a 4th socket, its already far and above much better than other shields out there. getting a dscale gives a paladin probably twice the amount of tanking that it had before. just the probability of one falling like that would make it too powerful, and then the game gets that much easier for the person who found a perfect dscale than someone who has found a crappy dscale with only 1 or 2 sockets. from here you get mixed opinions of the game... the person who has all the good runewords/uniques/sets and good versions of them versus the person who has crappy luck finding items and cannot get past the game.

you cannot tie difficulty of a mod to items or item rarity. thats when the difficulty of the mod falls apart, like what is happening here. id be willing to bet that most of the newcomers that purerage described (those who come in, level real quickly, gear up with all the best gear, and say the mod is too easy) wouldnt even come close to beating the game when the ladder reset comes without their precious dscales, dhorns and wars.

a difficult mod should be difficult even with the best gear. it should require a good team with people who know how to play and a strategy in place that works. there is nothing difficult about hell unleashed when you consider that once you find some specific items you can get by a lot easier.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
I agree with muleofal. We don't need even BETTER items. Items are already godly as it is! Give all items a lot more variability. Even that alone will make the game harder, will make mfing more worthwhile and will give things more meaning.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:54 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:03 am
Posts: 97
Quote:
you cannot tie difficulty of a mod to items or item rarity. thats when the difficulty of the mod falls apart, like what is happening here. id be willing to bet that most of the newcomers that purerage described (those who come in, level real quickly, gear up with all the best gear, and say the mod is too easy) wouldnt even come close to beating the game when the ladder reset comes without their precious dscales, dhorns and wars.

a difficult mod should be difficult even with the best gear. it should require a good team with people who know how to play and a strategy in place that works. there is nothing difficult about hell unleashed when you consider that once you find some specific items you can get by a lot easier.


I honestly didn't see this huge increase in my tanking ability or "OP-ness" once I got a dscale. I heard that once I got my dscale, it was all over baby. I'm gonna be so OP...bull. Sure it made me a bit tougher (not that I had any problems before) but it didn't really make the game imbalanced imo. But I know this is just an example you're using. Once you acquire certain equipment it can dramatically increase ease of game. I agree with thia and that having more variety in mods on uniques is a great idea, but for different reasons than you. As far as making game more interesting with variety it's a great idea, but as far as making the game harder, I don't think it's the solution.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a lot of this game balance that we're speaking of have almost entirely to do with the ease of trash mobs once you get your war, etc? Whenever I hear of another mod being more challenging than HU, this is basically the sole reason I hear coming from people. Aside from the very limited OP characters (which has a whole other thread), and rare instances, the toughest bosses in the game are in no way solo-able no matter how many dscales you have. Sammy, Los as an example. How many people have beaten the necro legitimately?

Your second paragraph I have highlighted is compelling and I can't find a reasonable argument against it other than we have to focus on something other than variety in equipment mods. Perhaps AI of mobs in hell difficulty. counters from trash where you have to really work together in order to survive? I have no problem with these solutions. If someone bitches about it being too hard, than they can just go play vanilla. Idk, just my two cents.

_________________
___________________________
"I ponder whether romantic relationships are really just handed down to us as forms of divine retribution in disguise."-Eric Watts


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:14 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
muleofal wrote:
a difficult mod should be difficult even with the best gear.


There is a problem with this.

If mod = hard with best gear, then what happens when you don't have the best gear?
if good gear = more effective character, then mediocre gear = less effective character.

If characters are less effective and can't accomplish the game, they start to turn to more effective characters to help them out. Then the rush cycle starts up.

If you follow the logic all the way through and don't just stop at the popular first step, you will realize that if you have a mod that is difficult even with the best gear you have failed in your balance because only the people with the best gear can properly progress through it. The people with the best gear become your target audience and that is a bad thing. People turn to farming, trading and hacking to get that gear (which isn't playing the game) and turn to higher levels or people with the best gear to complete the quests (which isn't playing the game).

A difficult mod should be difficult with the "average" gear. I don't mean the crappy gear, I mean relatively reasonable gear. A difficult mod should become easy with the best gear in the game.

This isn't something that most people in this community want to accept, but the logic is clear. Once you have all the fancy toys, you are going to have to work harder to find a challenge.

I ran in to this with my rabies druid. The game was moderately challenging for the build for most of the game. Once he got loaded up with skillers, impressive crafted rings, templars, etc he rocked the house and could take down Hell Sammy. That's just the nature of having the best gear.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:30 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:35 pm
Posts: 191
Location: US East
"zomg coop play has failed it is too easy make the game harder ffs"

This statement is a failure because they haven't really seen the true nature of the game. Haven't found the sub-bosses and fought them. Haven't explored most of the different areas just for fun.

And this statement is probably coming from the veterans. I still find the game reasonably difficult enough because I lack the gear necessary to make modest progress. Therefore I must change my tactics to adapt.

Don't complain just yet that this is another b.net, because it's not. /rant

p.s. Why the @#$% are the quest flags off?

_________________
Go and terminate with extreme prejudice
Most people just take steps. I take dubsteps.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:54 am 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
the fact is, the difficulty is a joke compared to the game we all loved. Even median xl is harder than this atm. :shock:

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:20 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Central America - Honduras - S.P.S.
hmmm maybe making all quests necessary to enter last tp (act boss tp) makes the game at least more extense... ( yes i know this aint make game harder but yes more complicated )

act 1 required quest for andy tp:

all except smith ( no more "fuck countess" with our recent no tp flags )

act 2 required quests for duriel tp:

all quests ( yeah i know every1 says: "fuck rady ill do it after baal")

act 3 required quests for meph tp:

all quests ( yes motherfuckers... even gidbin, sarina and councyl )

act 4 required quests for chaos sanctuary tp:

all quests ( then finally we gonna do izzy in party and not when we are about to do baal )

act 5 required quests for guardian tp and castle tp (or just baal tp):

all except nihlathak and shenk (too bad you need to socket items and personalize to end these quests)[and yes bitchas... blame me for suggesting to obligatory save our brothers in frigid highlands and the whore in the lake]

yes i know many ppl will say: "that idea is STUPID"
so yeah from now i tell you: FUCK YOU. this way the quests at least have a meaning for their existence... and maybe will serve as a filter for the estupidly high amount of people in hell early on ladder(talking about sc)... and help fight the rushness.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:25 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
Just make trash harder. Right now bosses are hard, trash is a joke.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:32 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 734
blue_myriddn wrote:
muleofal wrote:
a difficult mod should be difficult even with the best gear.


There is a problem with this. - no there is not.

If mod = hard with best gear, then what happens when you don't have the best gear?
if good gear = more effective character, then mediocre gear = less effective character.

If characters are less effective and can't accomplish the game, they start to turn to more effective characters to help them out. Then the rush cycle starts up.

If you follow the logic all the way through and don't just stop at the popular first step, you will realize that if you have a mod that is difficult even with the best gear you have failed in your balance because only the people with the best gear can properly progress through it. The people with the best gear become your target audience and that is a bad thing. People turn to farming, trading and hacking to get that gear (which isn't playing the game) and turn to higher levels or people with the best gear to complete the quests (which isn't playing the game).

A difficult mod should be difficult with the "average" gear. I don't mean the crappy gear, I mean relatively reasonable gear. A difficult mod should become easy with the best gear in the game. - no it shouldnt blue, thats the status quo that we have.

This isn't something that most people in this community want to accept, but the logic is clear. Once you have all the fancy toys, you are going to have to work harder to find a challenge. - no this is stupid. "work harder for a challenge"? seriously? you cant force people to "look harder" for a challenge in a mod thats supposed to present that challenge.

I ran in to this with my rabies druid. The game was moderately challenging for the build for most of the game. Once he got loaded up with skillers, impressive crafted rings, templars, etc he rocked the house and could take down Hell Sammy. That's just the nature of having the best gear.


you didnt comprehend my post fully. imbalanced gear is our problem. you can balance things so that one unique isnt far above the next in line. an example like dscale, it is far better than alma negra. when you do that, then it forces people to actually play the mod in good groups and with good strategies to progress, not rely on gear at all. if you want to have these good items that exist now, you just wont ever have a challenging mod anymore. the fact that they are available makes the game easier.

if you nerf the high end uniques that EVERYONE uses and beef up a bit the ones that NOBODY uses, youll see a lot more variety in gear choices on characters and youll also see a lot more groups coming together to beat the game. i know this may not be a popular point of view ("boo-hoo dont ruin my dscale") but its necessary if you want to preserve the mod being difficult. lets face it, HU doesnt live up to its name "hell unleashed" anymore. it has beefed up difficulty but beefed up items and skills from bnet. its actually not really much harder than bnet (legit bnet, not where dupers ruin everything. vanilla d2lod actually is challenging solo starting from scratch for most characters without all the precious duped enigmas and botting and such).


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:40 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
I think you made a few spins that are taking you to the same conclusion I made already even if you aren't realizing it.

muleofal wrote:
if you want to have these good items that exist now, you just wont ever have a challenging mod anymore


This statement is the core point here. All of those "good items" are the best gear and as you point out, with that best gear "you won't ever have a challenging mod". This sounds similar to what I wrote:

blue_myriddn wrote:
A difficult mod should become easy with the best gear in the game.


You can nerf the high end gear if you want, but you still can't use that as your benchmark for balance or you will have failed. You need to use the average gear as a benchmark. That is the only point I want to be sure is completely clear.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:41 am 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
I have never used dscale myself. I got through with my first pally using orphans set until hell ancients and orphans helm, tyraels, zaka, rends, gores nos coil and a couple of blood rings to kill baal. 1 item dont make or break a build. The druid I was running with was using the level 60 druid helm until level 99.
We didn't farm in a5 hell for long (maybe 2 hours, before we killed hell baal for the first time. It was abit disapointing, that was also before the changes made it easier. since then its been pretty funny being able to kill azmo and belial with 5.5k foh and 7.5k hammers on hell solo. These 2 bosses should require a 2-3 man team, they barely do any damage as it is.

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 734
Lorek B wrote:

I honestly didn't see this huge increase in my tanking ability or "OP-ness" once I got a dscale. I heard that once I got my dscale, it was all over baby. I'm gonna be so OP...bull. Sure it made me a bit tougher (not that I had any problems before) but it didn't really make the game imbalanced imo. - then you arent paying attention to your character or the game well enough.
But I know this is just an example you're using. Once you acquire certain equipment it can dramatically increase ease of game. I agree with thia and that having more variety in mods on uniques is a great idea, but for different reasons than you. As far as making game more interesting with variety it's a great idea, but as far as making the game harder, I don't think it's the solution. - what do you propose then? increasing monster damage a lot or increasing monster life only goes back to more imbalance and is a terrible idea. then you would be REQUIRED to have all these top end items, and without them the game would be impossible. if you want to create difficulty along with balance, you need to tone down on the high end uniques.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a lot of this game balance that we're speaking of have almost entirely to do with the ease of trash mobs once you get your war, etc? Whenever I hear of another mod being more challenging than HU, this is basically the sole reason I hear coming from people. Aside from the very limited OP characters (which has a whole other thread), and rare instances, the toughest bosses in the game are in no way solo-able no matter how many dscales you have. Sammy, Los as an example. How many people have beaten the necro legitimately? - its not only items, but there are balance problems with characters/skills as well. poison necro, hammerdins for example. they can solo the game. Sammy and LoS shouldnt be used as examples... those are bad examples to use when talking about not being able to solo. those should take really good teams AND really good items. hell overall should be tough, not only the end of it.

Your second paragraph I have highlighted is compelling and I can't find a reasonable argument against it other than we have to focus on something other than variety in equipment mods. Perhaps AI of mobs in hell difficulty. counters from trash where you have to really work together in order to survive? I have no problem with these solutions. If someone bitches about it being too hard, than they can just go play vanilla. Idk, just my two cents. - exactly, we cannot keep catering to the ones who want it easier, who want flags removed, who want this or that given to them if you want to preserve the difficulty of the mod.


Last edited by muleofal on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:05 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 734
blue_myriddn wrote:
You can nerf the high end gear if you want, but you still can't use that as your benchmark for balance or you will have failed. You need to use the average gear as a benchmark. That is the only point I want to be sure is completely clear.


i agree with this, thats perfectly fine. i never said that it shouldnt have been, but you cant have leaps and bounds of difference in one set of gear versus another. i think thats why people now are finding it to be easier and easier...many of these newcomers are acquiring this gear and experiencing the game with said great items. if you keep the difference in items to a smaller amount, then you can tweak monster damage/life/whatever else to make it harder without having big ranges in character types.

experience comes from the characters. however, you need to look at the broad scope of what these characters are using/what characters are they. an example: if your sample size is every newcomer saying its easy, and everyone in your sample is a poison necro wearing trangs, dweb, 20 skillers, etc etc, your sample isnt great or indicative at all of how the game is difficulty wise. thats what seems to be the case now... everyone is fleeing to make all the overpowered characters and trading for all the elite gear before getting their first real taste of the game.

of course, i dont believe items are the one true thing that is making the game easy. there are strong builds/skills, maybe certain mercs are too strong (looking at a1 mercs). my point is, you cant just compensate with higher damage amounts of bosses or higher boss life, because you need to take into account those who may not have all that great gear (back to your point of the average benchmark).

heres my point i want to hit home:

if you use the average gear setup as a benchmark for difficulty, then you want to bring the better gear down closer to that average, and the shittier gear up closer to that average. that way, there arent swinging perceptions of difficulty.


Last edited by muleofal on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
I personally despise counters as that in and of itself completely ruins some builds (See: frozen orb). Counters are only okay if there is a limit on the number that can occur per ten seconds or something.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:08 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
muleofal wrote:
i agree with this, thats perfectly fine. but you cant have leaps and bounds of difference in one set of gear versus another. i think thats why people now are finding it to be easier and easier...many of these newcomers are acquiring this gear and experiencing the game with said great items. if you keep the difference in items to a smaller amount, then you can tweak monster damage/life/whatever else to make it harder without having big ranges in character types.


Agreed.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:39 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:55 pm
Posts: 447
Location: Reno, NV
blue_myriddn wrote:
muleofal wrote:
a difficult mod should be difficult even with the best gear.


A difficult mod should be difficult with the "average" gear. I don't mean the crappy gear, I mean relatively reasonable gear. A difficult mod should become easy with the best gear in the game.



This is pretty much the only statement in this thread that makes real sense.

I don't know where other people are coming from, but if I'm going to spend my countless hours farming the best possible gear, and my character doesn't rape, where is the point? Why would anyone waste anytime past level 90 if their level 70 equipment was just as good as 95's? That would be stupid.

Fact of the matter is, this is a difficult mod. The learning curve is HUGE. The problem you people seem to face when comprehending Diablo II is that it IS NOT a skill-based game. You really don't have to have much gaming ability to play it well. It is a KNOWLEDGE based game. The more you know about proper builds, proper gear, proper strategies for bosses, what role your character is, etc. the easier the game becomes. It has nothing to do with your UBER teleporting skills, or your ability to click your mouse 5000 times a second.

It is a knowledge based game, so obviously the more you know about the game; the more tricks you've discovered, the easier it will be.


Oh also, most of the kids screaming it's easy have never played untwinked.

_________________
A Lannister always pays his debts.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:59 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 734
Abominae wrote:
blue_myriddn wrote:
muleofal wrote:
a difficult mod should be difficult even with the best gear.


A difficult mod should be difficult with the "average" gear. I don't mean the crappy gear, I mean relatively reasonable gear. A difficult mod should become easy with the best gear in the game.



This is pretty much the only statement in this thread that makes real sense.

I don't know where other people are coming from, but if I'm going to spend my countless hours farming the best possible gear, and my character doesn't rape, where is the point? Why would anyone waste anytime past level 90 if their level 70 equipment was just as good as 95's? That would be stupid.

Fact of the matter is, this is a difficult mod. The learning curve is HUGE. The problem you people seem to face when comprehending Diablo II is that it IS NOT a skill-based game. You really don't have to have much gaming ability to play it well. It is a KNOWLEDGE based game. The more you know about proper builds, proper gear, proper strategies for bosses, what role your character is, etc. the easier the game becomes. It has nothing to do with your UBER teleporting skills, or your ability to click your mouse 5000 times a second.

It is a knowledge based game, so obviously the more you know about the game; the more tricks you've discovered, the easier it will be.


Oh also, most of the kids screaming it's easy have never played untwinked.



the point is that this mod was advertised as hard, but equipping certain gear makes it a joke to play. so either its a lie in the marketing or theres imbalance in gear/skills/characters. i think this game is at its hardest before the late stages of hell, when people cannot have access to the uber gear. it seems to get easier once you are able to find all the goodies, but then there is no fun to it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:01 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
Quote:
It is a knowledge based game, so obviously the more you know about the game; the more tricks you've discovered, the easier it will be.


Oh also, most of the kids screaming it's easy have never played untwinked.


Thats actually 2 really good points now i think about it.

Solution: Implement the anti-rush system IMO, its the rushing that makes people think its easy.

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:07 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:55 pm
Posts: 447
Location: Reno, NV
Then don't play it?

Simply put, the difficulty curve in Hell is there. A1-3 Hell is hard, especially for an elemental character, as is A4. A5 is hard as well, until you hit 95.

When I gear a character correctly, I expect trash to become easy to me. It is, trash after all.


it seems to get easier once you are able to find all the goodies - That's quite a surprise. Better gear making your character better. Who would have thought that was possible?

What is the point in playing an item/wealth based game if the items you acquire at 95-99 aren't that good? Why would you even bother playing a character past getting to A5 Hell if this wasn't the case?

_________________
A Lannister always pays his debts.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 734
Abominae wrote:
Then don't play it? - as much as i enjoyed it, id rather wait for the reset now and find people to play with who dont twink/rush/buff with high levels.

Simply put, the difficulty curve in Hell is there. A1-3 Hell is hard, especially for an elemental character, as is A4. A5 is hard as well, until you hit 95.

When I gear a character correctly, I expect trash to become easy to me. It is, trash after all. - thats fine, i agree. but some of the 95 items make bosses easy as well. i dont think a small nerf to them is out of order.


it seems to get easier once you are able to find all the goodies - That's quite a surprise. Better gear making your character better. Who would have thought that was possible?

What is the point in playing an item/wealth based game if the items you acquire at 95-99 aren't that good? Why would you even bother playing a character past getting to A5 Hell if this wasn't the case? - again you fail to read or comprehend what ive written. i never said they dont need to be that good, they are just 10x better than the next set of gear, which apparently you cant get through your empty skull. they can be better, but currently they are leaps and bounds better, not just better


whats the point of a hard mod where the end boss is easier than the bosses preceding it? we might as well end the game after act3 or act4 hell and leave baal and his minions alone.

its not all items though, i think only the end game items provide the end game to be easier than mid game. theres a bigger focus needed on overpowered builds (psn necro, hammerdin, etc).


Last edited by muleofal on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:15 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:58 am
Posts: 90
Location: Székesfehérvár, Hungary
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
It is a knowledge based game, so obviously the more you know about the game; the more tricks you've discovered, the easier it will be.


Oh also, most of the kids screaming it's easy have never played untwinked.


Thats actually 2 really good points now i think about it.

Solution: Implement the anti-rush system IMO, its the rushing that makes people think its easy.


Agreed. And we need more balanced builds, some of the builds are just OP whereas others sucks bigtime,even with the best gear.

_________________
Roses are red, violets are blue
This poem should rhyme, but it doesn't.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:23 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:52 pm
Posts: 72
WolfStar wrote:
I personally despise counters as that in and of itself completely ruins some builds (See: frozen orb). Counters are only okay if there is a limit on the number that can occur per ten seconds or something.


Well I don't know about the whole Frozen Orb thing because I only use Ice Bolt for bosses. Does 70k dmg instead of 15k and I can spam it without cast delay. Although I very very very much agree with your statement there. Have you ever seen a Charged Strike zon attack a countering Boss? lol every 1 swing = like 12 counters. That's crazy. With any decent ias your at 40+ counters a second.

Also, as far as the mod being too easy. Meh I don't really care either way. It's fun.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:44 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
The game doesn't need its difficulty ramped up. It needs its OP builds toned down. The reason the mod is so easy is because we have poison necros, hammerdins, bow zons, etc...


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:21 pm
Posts: 58
How about nerfing the one point wonders? Start amp off at 25% and lvl 20 being 50%? Same with lower res...Decrease natural res and increased stamina not only does it force barbs to put those extra 10 or so points they have in natural res or something but it also decreases the strength on war. Nerf the life buff of oak sage or remove charges for it on wisp ring. Once again nerf the HELL out of BO which weakens charcs, mercs, and tanks for both boss fights and hordes. To make it a little more fair for barbs give them a bigger life buff for hard points in vit. These simple fixes will reduce the godliness of OP builds and people with high level items but not hurt the people with less in the game. As soon as I could BO on my necro the game became WAY easier.

I personally find it ridiculous when I am running around on a necor with like 7k life from self BO and oak and 9k+ with barb and druid.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:21 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am
Posts: 490
Location: Richmond Va
WolfStar wrote:
The game doesn't need its difficulty ramped up. It needs its OP builds toned down.
+1

**Nerf poison skills by 1/3.

**Remove multishot from act1 mercs.

**Restore quest/portal flags.

Merc's should no longer do 100% damage to boss flagged monsters.

Teleport/amp/conviction/LR shouldn't be on any item except zodwords. In some cases not even then.

CTC curses on items should be reduced from lvl 5 to lvl1. *Also, all amp/LR charges should be removed from wands.*(optional)

More random elemental immunities on monsters.

More physical immune non-undead monsters.


If just the first 3 suggestions were implemented, there would be no need to make uniques vary. People wouldn't be steam rolling the game like they are now. Summon necros/druids would go back to being support charcters like they should be. Poison skills would no longer WTF own trash/bosses. Melee zons/barbs/fury druids would have to deal with physical immunes that weren't undead.

To be continued......its midnight and I'm tired.

_________________
I was never more at home than I was in battle. - Solomon Kane


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:09 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:43 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Wisconsin
Sugarbean wrote:
WolfStar wrote:
I personally despise counters as that in and of itself completely ruins some builds (See: frozen orb). Counters are only okay if there is a limit on the number that can occur per ten seconds or something.


Well I don't know about the whole Frozen Orb thing because I only use Ice Bolt for bosses. Does 70k dmg instead of 15k and I can spam it without cast delay. Although I very very very much agree with your statement there. Have you ever seen a Charged Strike zon attack a countering Boss? lol every 1 swing = like 12 counters. That's crazy. With any decent ias your at 40+ counters a second.


Oh man, what a topic! I've been working too much to really get another post in but read this one and totally agree. This goes against the making the game harder thing sort of, but those counters are so f'ing annoying. I guess what I hate the most is, you battle as a team to get to a boss, then only 1 person actually attacks the boss. wtf is that. if everyone fights, everyone dies, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you are trying to kill something. Most bosses are fine the way they are with high life, (they could have much more, and should have more if counters are taken off or greatly reduced) I just really want to see more teams emerge and other gear useful again. Nerf large charms, damn those things still suck ass. Too late to post about what others have said, but I will in time. G'night.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:26 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 49
crew82 wrote:
Sugarbean wrote:
WolfStar wrote:
I personally despise counters as that in and of itself completely ruins some builds (See: frozen orb). Counters are only okay if there is a limit on the number that can occur per ten seconds or something.


Well I don't know about the whole Frozen Orb thing because I only use Ice Bolt for bosses. Does 70k dmg instead of 15k and I can spam it without cast delay. Although I very very very much agree with your statement there. Have you ever seen a Charged Strike zon attack a countering Boss? lol every 1 swing = like 12 counters. That's crazy. With any decent ias your at 40+ counters a second.


Oh man, what a topic! I've been working too much to really get another post in but read this one and totally agree. This goes against the making the game harder thing sort of, but those counters are so f'ing annoying. I guess what I hate the most is, you battle as a team to get to a boss, then only 1 person actually attacks the boss. wtf is that. if everyone fights, everyone dies, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you are trying to kill something. Most bosses are fine the way they are with high life, (they could have much more, and should have more if counters are taken off or greatly reduced) I just really want to see more teams emerge and other gear useful again. Nerf large charms, damn those things still suck ass. Too late to post about what others have said, but I will in time. G'night.


+1 totally agree with the boss strategy.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:21 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
I agree with what's been posted. It's sad how few builds are used.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:41 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
WolfStar wrote:
I agree with what's been posted. It's sad how few builds are used.


What builds are the obvious "these suck" builds?

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:58 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
blue_myriddn wrote:
WolfStar wrote:
I agree with what's been posted. It's sad how few builds are used.


What builds are the obvious "these suck" builds?


Because of counters - orb, charged strike zon, etc type.

A lot of elemental builds. Vengeance pally, frostbite/fireclaw druid, hydra sorc, lightning sorc, blizzard sorc, elemental bow zons, lightning javelin zons, phoenix strike sin, summoners, elemental druids. Many are viable, sure, but still suck compared to the OP builds.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:09 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am
Posts: 490
Location: Richmond Va
WolfStar wrote:
Vengeance pally, frostbite/fireclaw druid, hydra sorc, lightning sorc, blizzard sorc, elemental bow zons, lightning javelin zons, phoenix strike sin, summoners, elemental druids. Many are viable, sure, but still suck compared to the OP builds.


In other words, poison necro's and hammerdins are the only builds that don't suck?

_________________
I was never more at home than I was in battle. - Solomon Kane


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:12 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:05 am
Posts: 422
WolfStar wrote:
blue_myriddn wrote:
WolfStar wrote:
I agree with what's been posted. It's sad how few builds are used.


What builds are the obvious "these suck" builds?


Because of counters - orb, charged strike zon, etc type.

A lot of elemental builds. Vengeance pally, frostbite/fireclaw druid, hydra sorc, lightning sorc, blizzard sorc, elemental bow zons, lightning javelin zons, phoenix strike sin, summoners, elemental druids. Many are viable, sure, but still suck compared to the OP builds.

Frostbiter/FC are great.
Light sorc are OP.
Blizz sorc are great.
Elemental bowzons are awesome.
Light javazon are great on thrash and decent on bosses with the light jav.
Summoners are all great support chars.
Elemental druids are almost OP.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
Sure, they may be "fine," but the whole point is that they are nowhere near as easy and good as hammerdins, poison necros, etc. It's not that they aren't doable, it's that they are nothing in comparison.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:49 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am
Posts: 490
Location: Richmond Va
WolfStar wrote:
Sure, they may be "fine," but the whole point is that they are nowhere near as easy and good as hammerdins, poison necros, etc. It's not that they aren't doable, it's that they are nothing in comparison.


Ok.

WolfStar wrote:
The game doesn't need its difficulty ramped up. It needs its OP builds toned down.


Umm, make up your mind. Should all builds be buff to where they fly through the game? Or should poison builds/hammerdins get a nerf to even things out? Like to add act1 mercs to that list as well. They turn the safest summon builds into powerhouse killers. Completely OP.

_________________
I was never more at home than I was in battle. - Solomon Kane


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:51 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
FuryCury wrote:
WolfStar wrote:
Sure, they may be "fine," but the whole point is that they are nowhere near as easy and good as hammerdins, poison necros, etc. It's not that they aren't doable, it's that they are nothing in comparison.


Ok.

WolfStar wrote:
The game doesn't need its difficulty ramped up. It needs its OP builds toned down.


Umm, make up your mind. Should all builds be buff to where they fly through the game? Or should poison builds/hammerdins get a nerf to even things out? Like to add act1 mercs to that list as well. They turn the safest summon builds into powerhouse killers. Completely OP.


Where did I say to buff up the lesser builds?


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:01 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am
Posts: 490
Location: Richmond Va
WolfStar wrote:

Where did I say to buff up the lesser builds?


Removing counters = buffing ele builds.

Pre-counters, my javazon could solo hell D in 4-5 seconds. Most of us fail to see game balance as an equation. If you alter one side, you have to alter the other side to keep balance. If counters were nerfed/removed, then ALL ele damage and any attack faster than 5fpa would have to be rebalanced. Thats entirely too much work to do just because someone thinks there javazon should be able to tank a boss while using charged strike.

_________________
I was never more at home than I was in battle. - Solomon Kane


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:21 am
Posts: 197
FuryCury wrote:
WolfStar wrote:

Where did I say to buff up the lesser builds?


Removing counters = buffing ele builds.

Pre-counters, my javazon could solo hell D in 4-5 seconds. Most of us fail to see game balance as an equation. If you alter one side, you have to alter the other side to keep balance. If counters were nerfed/removed, then ALL ele damage and any attack faster than 5fpa would have to be rebalanced. Thats entirely too much work to do just because someone thinks there javazon should be able to tank a boss while using charged strike.


It doesn't buff ele builds, it buffs CERTAIN builds. Right now those builds are unplayable. If it takes some work to make them balanced but still playable, then yeah, it should be done.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:34 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am
Posts: 490
Location: Richmond Va
WolfStar wrote:

Vengeance pally, frostbite/fireclaw druid, hydra sorc, lightning sorc, blizzard sorc, elemental bow zons, lightning javelin zons, phoenix strike sin, summoners, elemental druids. Many are viable, sure, but still suck compared to the OP builds.


WolfStar wrote:

It doesn't buff ele builds, it buffs CERTAIN builds. Right now those builds are unplayable. If it takes some work to make them balanced but still playable, then yeah, it should be done.


Are these builds viable? Or are they unplayable?

I have played most of these builds and lvled them to 99 or 100. The one's I haven't played I have quested with. IE: a friend has made one. The only character that merits a buff in your list is the hydra sorc. Terry will not buff her. If he does, he will make it so hydra can only be casted at the sorc's feet. Back to the equation of balance.

_________________
I was never more at home than I was in battle. - Solomon Kane


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:50 pm 

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:28 am
Posts: 41
I have only read the OP. The only thing I can say to people on how to make the game harder for themselves is to NOT RUSH. Do not rush at all anywhere through any bosses or areas. For the majority of people, because I have seen that the majority of public boss games are rushes and perhaps many of the private boss games are too, there will be a large increase in difficulty. And you may say that you don't rush or you only rush on the easier parts... well, I have met some of the players on this forum/server that you would think don't rush.... but they do when it gets toughest, and it is exactly when it gets toughest in this game that it is more rewarding if you dont rush.


Some people rush through difficult stuff on this mod because they come up with some reason to rush, and then complain that the game is not hard enough. That is sometimes for some people because they rush through the most difficult things.

Well, surprise surprise, if you rush in this game, it will be easier, there will be less rewarding experience. It will require less effort and give you less satisfaction. The game will be less interesting.

So I can only advice people who this applies to in some degree to play through the game without rushing at all or single spawning at all. Then you will find the game more difficult and more interesting and rewarding. And then you can come say that the game is too easy with actually knowing something about the game at easier and more difficult points.

This may not apply to anyone in this thread.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:17 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:10 am
Posts: 12
I'm playing through multiplayer [though I mostly play by myself], and my 52 frenzy barb is currently getting stomped by the seal bosses of the chaos sanctuary, since half of them constantly spam tornadoes and have holy freeze. I'd say it's a much more difficult challenge than b.net diablo, and I'm pretty happy with it.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:40 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:34 am
Posts: 391
just start from scratch grab a character and don't give him any money or items. pick and choose your groups if at all and play the game entirely through and it isn't so easy and a hell of a lot more fun.

Not much fun when your merc is doing 700dmg at lvl 9.

_________________
iz a secret


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:58 am 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
sell gems and spending 20 mins gambling jewels at level 6 will give you a 500 damage merc at least

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:52 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:03 pm
Posts: 20
Im pretty sure every time there is a new patch theres a new group of ppl complaining that something is wrong, you know its not possible to have every build equal, of course some are going to be better then others which is why everybody figures out what they are and makes them much more frequently then others, you want a challenge then build one of the random "crappy hero builds" and see how hard the game can be, but don't complain when you make the new cookie cutter char on hu and its too easy


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:11 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am
Posts: 490
Location: Richmond Va
domi wrote:
don't complain when you make the new cookie cutter char on hu and its too easy


My nigga!!!

_________________
I was never more at home than I was in battle. - Solomon Kane


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:33 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:34 am
Posts: 391
PureRage-DoD wrote:
sell gems and spending 20 mins gambling jewels at level 6 will give you a 500 damage merc at least


No way you can get a 4 socket by then. Let alone artic set.

_________________
iz a secret


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:17 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
3 socket helm, armour and bow. you dont need arctic, the only thing its good for is the res, no max damage on it and a very low damage bow. Not hard to gamble a 9 max damage jewels after clearing the den. Chipped gems cover you for gold if you clear the moore and open all chests etc. chances are you will get a socket and glyph to sell too. Deaths gloves and belt at level 8 along with all max damage gear, and rings and she has more than enough damage to stay alive through life leech.

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:38 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:09 pm
Posts: 86
I believe that normal mode could be made harder without a HUGE impact by just reducing received exp from monsters thoughout the game (imo you shouldnt be ~23 when doing andariel and ~60 at normal baal). Also, if you want to make shit an iota harder in hell, reduce inventory space for skiller GCs: like instead of 10x6, do 10x5 or less. (for all you rich fuckers ;P)

_________________
-ISO- Moonstone Rubies, +6/-6 Psn/Lite Facets,
Hearts (pal/nec/dru/zon), Braaaains


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:06 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:34 am
Posts: 391
The guys who stack all those things are just collectors they aren't playing for the game play. They might as well play bejeweled.

_________________
iz a secret


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:48 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:35 pm
Posts: 191
Location: US East
oZio wrote:
The guys who stack all those things are just collectors they aren't playing for the game play. They might as well play bejeweled.

I am a pack rat; therefore, I take offense :P j/k

Anyhow, the level of skillers being twice the level as vanilla (80? compared to 42) should've provided distraction enough. Obviously, with the other charms you can get it's not that difficult to get overpowered endgame.

By far, there is only a few skills I've not seen anyone use and one of them is Shockwave - by far it's only trash control and doesn't do much damage but the stun is why it's there. Because it doesn't do much damage, it's often avoided.

Multiplayer is supposed to be a team effort. I suggest re-ramping the difficulty per additional player just to give that extra push. As far as normal mode goes, I haven't seen anything wrong of it except for the fact you must team up to take down the bigger bosses - a thing I do like - but what I want to see is that even the smaller parts require some more teamwork.

_________________
Go and terminate with extreme prejudice
Most people just take steps. I take dubsteps.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:41 am 

Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:28 am
Posts: 41
Man, I'm confused. People talking about the game including act bosses, I presume, being easy. If you are cruising through the act bosses under reasonable circumstances that doesn't circumvent the intended difficulty of the boss itself, for example rushing with a character higher than the area level range or spawning bosses with lesser spawns, then please please direct me to any of those games on SC! It is hard as hell to find people in public on SC who does not complete an act boss with a character higher level than reasonable. Maybe they play hardcore, maybe not. If they play in private games under these circumstances, then please I would very much like to join you throughout the game.

In my opinion, the gameplay is about 2 things. Twinking your hero(skills, stats, gear) and killing monsters/completing quests. Those 2 things are essential to the game. Without them I think the game would be less interesting, so those are good to do in the game.
The thing that baffles me is how some of the people in this thread ask for challenge and when they're presented with it and find they don't like it, because it's hard, tedious, work, sometimes doesn't work, and yet more rewarding overall, they circumvent the challenge by marking wps, rushing with a character outside the lvl range, using high lvl healer, using high lvl bo/oak chars, chanting lowbies, rushing through hard act bosses and then round it up by complaining that there is not enough challenge. Well, you just skipped it!

Now I know that some do not rush past the objectives that are the hardest, most tedious, most demanding, most likely to not work the first time and I would like to play with you some time when our quests meet.

It is exactly when it is toughest that there is most challenge, whether it is in normal, nightmare or hell. So if you circumvent that challenge in an unreasonable way, then you're not gonna find the game as challenging.

Personally, I think a lot of builds are viable and a lot of party setups can complete major quests and kill bosses. Many can. I'm just having a hard time understanding why there are so few public games playing through act bosses without rushing or single spawning, and then a 8 page thread expressing there is not enough challenge. Maybe it's different people who make public games in all difficulties and who write in this thread.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:16 am 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
Quote:
then please please direct me to any of those games on SC! It is hard as hell to find people in public on SC who does not complete an act boss with a character higher level than reasonable.

I'll give you a shout next time im on and up for some sc. My druid is still at wsk wp since the last time i teamed with you.

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:47 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:11 am
Posts: 977
I dont get what all this talk about item variation is for, you play the game for the difficulty not for the grind of finding that 'perfect' item. reduce drop rates? to increase grind? why?
you want a difficult game ? implement anti rush measures, fuck the flags.
the game is only hard when playing untwinked, even then it is only moderately difficult with enough preperation, though the difference between trash and bosses needs to be addressed, and in a better way than just puttin some champ mariliths every so often.

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:34 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:03 am
Posts: 97
Quote:
if you use the average gear setup as a benchmark for difficulty, then you want to bring the better gear down closer to that average, and the shittier gear up closer to that average. that way, there arent swinging perceptions of difficulty.


Muleofal,

You make several interesting points about how the game could be made more difficult, some of which make a lot sense, like the above-item spawn variation. Also, flag reinstating.

There are two camps, those which think that no matter how much gear, and how many levels you acquire, the game should always be difficult, even regular mobs. Then, there are those who think they should be difficult until you work hard to get gear and level yourself+skills up to 100. We have to please both camps, and it's not easy to balance this, it has to be tread on lightly. When you start messing with dscale and things like war (which a lot of people have worked hard for) people will freak out.

There are also two things I'd like to point out. You complain about difficulty but:
1) You haven't ever ran a full game of LOS this season.
2) IIRC, you started playing regularly around late December, early Janury, which is nearly 5 months after the season began.
3) Did you actually do NIhl and other a5 Hell quests?

As you and most people know, this is my first season. My experience was that the game was extremely difficult up to level 95, until I made my first war and got my first eth tomb reaver. Dude, I was so stoked about finally acquiring enough runes to make War, that I almost told my grandmother about how high the defense was on the archon plate. I busted my ass for these things, you can't take this away from people. And now that I am 100, I expect the game to be much easier, because I "won".

However, if I'm up for a challenge, I go to LOS, help with a Baal run, or do other mini quests like sword of wanderer, and cursed amulet. If that get's boring, I help lower level people. If that gets boring, I start a new toon. Speaking of which, you should read this, it's basically right on target with what you are wanting, no twink, no rush party, which has been lots of fun. http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1386

Would love to group with you, you're a knowledgeable and fun player. Take it easy.

_________________
___________________________
"I ponder whether romantic relationships are really just handed down to us as forms of divine retribution in disguise."-Eric Watts


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:48 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:11 am
Posts: 977
speakin of which get in gear NT shoes and I are waiting at baal!

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:19 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:03 am
Posts: 97
Don't worry Zikur, it looks like we'll at at least do Diablo tomorrow with the NT party. This party is really great, we will rock in hell! Go NT's!!!

_________________
___________________________
"I ponder whether romantic relationships are really just handed down to us as forms of divine retribution in disguise."-Eric Watts


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:03 am
Posts: 97
Quote:
There are also two things I'd like to point out. You complain about difficulty but:
1) You haven't ever ran a full game of LOS this season.
2) IIRC, you started playing regularly around late December, early Janury, which is nearly 5 months after the season began.
3) Did you actually do NIhl and other a5 Hell quests?


I stand corrected, a couple of people have informed me that Muleofal has completed all a5 quests, already done LOS, and basically has finished game already this season, so disregard those comments above.

_________________
___________________________
"I ponder whether romantic relationships are really just handed down to us as forms of divine retribution in disguise."-Eric Watts


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:15 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:11 am
Posts: 977
make baal harder than darkness.or darkness easier than baal.

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:56 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
darkness has multishot doesn't he? Or is it just straight tornados?

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:27 am 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:11 am
Posts: 977
he has multishot of what looks similiar to the missiles that the unravellers in a2 have. its his 2k nado's with 20% dr unamped. Also unsure if he has much much more hp than all the others and baal, i was pretty sure he was a demon but hammers did much less vs him than baal. Does he have some sort of regen? His hp kept goin above and below the last ']' in his name but he never went undamaged for the full heal timer nor did he ever fully heal

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:29 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
Seems like ditching the multishot would remove the mass dmg spikes that his nados can create. I know that going toe to toe with him can be the real pain, but if you can hit/run it isn't so bad.

No clue on his regen.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:08 am 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
the only problem with darkness is when you are amped, if someone is running SoB you are usualy ok.

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:27 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:11 am
Posts: 977
except thats not always an option, we 4 man'd it last night with a windy kick sin hammers and I multi'd my healer. Without oak it was risking being 1 shot from 80% by regular nado's, and that was on my palla who had the most hp in the party-not the most balanced party, but we did have one life buff two shouldnt be a 'requirement' for normal which is what I'm talking about specifically, nm and hell you get wisps ondals cta ect.

While we're talking about counters why not increase the dmg of it others in order to tone down the nado's a bit maybe not. I will agree you can hit and run rather easily, or hit and chase in that situation but whats the point of his other counters when even his spamming of frozen orb accounts for about 4% of his damage output.

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:40 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:02 pm
Posts: 284
muleofal wrote:
Angel wrote:
make the perfect versions slightly stronger than the current versions but the variability of them big enough so that generally only a few perfects will exist.


and this quote is exactly what is wrong with the difficulty of this mod.

the items are one of the biggest reasons of the easiness of this mod. most of the high end ones are completely too overpowered. dscale doesnt need to get a 4th socket, its already far and above much better than other shields out there. getting a dscale gives a paladin probably twice the amount of tanking that it had before. just the probability of one falling like that would make it too powerful, and then the game gets that much easier for the person who found a perfect dscale than someone who has found a crappy dscale with only 1 or 2 sockets. from here you get mixed opinions of the game... the person who has all the good runewords/uniques/sets and good versions of them versus the person who has crappy luck finding items and cannot get past the game.

you cannot tie difficulty of a mod to items or item rarity. thats when the difficulty of the mod falls apart, like what is happening here. id be willing to bet that most of the newcomers that purerage described (those who come in, level real quickly, gear up with all the best gear, and say the mod is too easy) wouldnt even come close to beating the game when the ladder reset comes without their precious dscales, dhorns and wars.

a difficult mod should be difficult even with the best gear. it should require a good team with people who know how to play and a strategy in place that works. there is nothing difficult about hell unleashed when you consider that once you find some specific items you can get by a lot easier.


This is why if I were gay, Al would be my lover. I agree with him 100% and i've been saying this since the first week I played HU. Great mod, has potential, but the items needs to be looked at.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:01 am 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
Items are over rated IMO :lol:

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:02 pm
Posts: 284
Even PureRage agrees :D


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:45 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:07 pm
Posts: 453
Location: Hell
First off the Mod right now as it stands is 3 times as hard as it was in 05 and 06. Only reason this mod ever became as hard as was in late 08 was becuase of single spawning and other exploits so Terry made the game Diffaculty to 3 spawn. And back then tps were not flagged ether so whats the bitch. And for the people that think its to easy then erase all your toons and start over simple as that.

_________________
P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:42 am 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:36 pm
Posts: 337
Location: BCN [ Spain ]
YOu say that, but you also say that playing naked vs diablo is NOT impressive.

hipocrit.

_________________
"I am who I am. Your approval isn't needed"


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:40 am 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
tonykantos wrote:
YOu say that, but you also say that playing naked vs diablo is NOT impressive.

hipocrit.


The 2 are not mutually exclusive. With the right party, this game is not challenging; that is something that is widely known. While I personally think it is cool that people are playing naked through areas, the constant pump of healing bolts (or whatever, haven't watched the video) probably doesn't impress Asteroth.

For instance, I generally find Nihlathak to be a challenging boss and a good fight. But when I have faced him with a full party that has Oak, Battle Orders and a beastly physical zon it was so easy that I probably could have surfed the internet while beating him down. I have had similar experiences when Nedder turned the full attention of his super power healer on my character.

You may disagree with him, but there is no hypocrisy in his view point.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:48 am 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
Asteroth wrote:
First off the Mod right now, as it stands, is 3 times as hard as it was in 05 and 06. Only reason this mod ever became as hard was in late 08 was beause of single spawning and other exploits, so Terry made the game Difficulty to 3 spawn. Back then tps were not flagged ether so whats the bitch? And for the people that think its to easy then erase all your toons and start over simple as that.


It was alot harder before the 1.21z "Update". Whats the point in making things harder or easier when alot will just glitch a barb and kill anything they want easily anyway, its kinda sad. Remove these bugs before talking about increased difficulty. (Normal is a complete joke at the min, though that could be good for new players). A minimum of 7 or 8 diff people in the channel have all said "Just glitch a barb to kill the druid and nec". Fix this shit first id say.

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:34 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:14 pm
Posts: 343
Location: Nevada/Arizona
@Pure rage: Are people REALLY using the glitch I think you're talking about? If so, lolz

In all seriousness, the game can be made much better in the following ways:
1. Balance balance balance.
2. Let uniques, sets, runewords vary in their stats

_________________
Oh dear god, why me?
This mother fucker hits hard
I'm out of cooldowns


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:43 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
yeh, it's rife on sc, I've heard a couple mention using it if they make it there on hc but so far none of them have got to that stage. Thats how the first sc team to do it got past the druid and necro. :lol:

remove the bug plz, to many are using this crutch...

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:07 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
LmT wrote:
2. Let uniques, sets, runewords vary in their stats


To be perfectly honest, I don't see how #2 makes things harder. What is the rationale here?

A big way to increase the difficulty though is to:

1. adjust +skill charms to be lvl95
2. remove +AR and +str from magic charms
3. reduce AR, str and blocking bonuses from end game gear
4. Raise mana costs on spells

Dividing stat distribution between vit, energy, str & dex rather than allowing for such a heavy emphasis on vit will dramatically change the game.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:27 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:14 pm
Posts: 343
Location: Nevada/Arizona
blue_myriddn wrote:
LmT wrote:
2. Let uniques, sets, runewords vary in their stats


To be perfectly honest, I don't see how #2 makes things harder. What is the rationale here?

A big way to increase the difficulty though is to:

1. adjust +skill charms to be lvl95
2. remove +AR and +str from magic charms
3. reduce AR, str and blocking bonuses from end game gear
4. Raise mana costs on spells

Dividing stat distribution between vit, energy, str & dex rather than allowing for such a heavy emphasis on vit will dramatically change the game.


I agree with your suggestions. How do you feel about the stats on gems?

I had a rationale for #2 somewhere but I think it got lost.

_________________
Oh dear god, why me?
This mother fucker hits hard
I'm out of cooldowns


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:52 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
All I see those "fixes" doing is forcing everyone to play a smiter as a boss killing build. What happens to barbs, ss druids and jabzons? Same goes for novelty builds like wwsin and melee necro. Reintroduce quest flags, maybe add more. Remove all tp's except castle and realm of the slain.
Make smite a static 13 fpa or make it AR based
Make Amp and LR hard points only to increase pierce and radius, softpoints increase duration.
40% at level 1 gaining 2% per hard point.
Buff claw masterys ar bonus by 10% per point and lower ar bonus on dragon claw finisher.

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:55 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:07 pm
Posts: 453
Location: Hell
Okay this Glitch is news to me Kev wtf is this shit? I only bean back a month so someone want to take the time out to tell me what this is so if i run into a nub that trys this i can ether Screan it or just kick him or her out of the game . Man people really need to glitch to do Los now wtf has Hu become :evil:

_________________
P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:09 pm 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 2432
LmT wrote:
I agree with your suggestions. How do you feel about the stats on gems?

I had a rationale for #2 somewhere but I think it got lost.


Gems are in pretty good shape as the value in using rubies is now very pronounced for most players compared to using amethysts/emeralds. In other words, you are generally worse off if you rely on those items to boost your stats in terms of overall life so it doesn't really make sense to use them as a permanent substitution for stat points. More like..."hmm - I want to use this item NOW, so let me toss a few amethysts in to allow me to use it" but in the end I would get more life from going rubies.

The obvious problem now is that end game gear throws that all out of whack with big boosts. So it *is* worthwhile to rely on sockets because in the end you can swap out those socketted gems for rubies and still meet your requirements.

For example - take dscale which has a 50% increased chance of blocking compared to the 20-25% ctb that earlier paladin shields have. Why in the world am I going to boost my dex high enough to max block on a 20% ctb shield when eventually I am going to gear a dscale? As so many players streamline and optimize their characters to a razors edge on this server, there is no way they are going to buy in to that logic. Instead they will use emeralds to get by until they can dscale up and switch over. If you bring the ctb on dscale down to 25% though, you change the game dynamics considerably. Reduce the dex boost from enigma from 3/4pt per level to 1/3 pt per level and it gets even more dramatic. Suddenly the value in spending points on dexterity rises

So it isn't really the gems that are creating the issue, if you balance down the late game gear the gems fall in line and don't create a problem.

_________________
People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:11 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:07 pm
Posts: 453
Location: Hell
I agree on flagging tps. But like Blue said when you start changeing gear such as Dscale and other 95's will throw the hole game out of wack.
I brought this up way back during the beta test for that big patch Terry worked on can't remmber year but Take eth out of the game you will see a big result in balance Examples.
1/ A1 cookie cutter mercs wont be over godly and the summon nec will have to do a little more then just being a tele chicken
2/ Barbs crazy dmg with eth wind hammer and eth rare Tmauls will be toned down
3/ Now the Zod rune hehe make that Cb instead of ber having cb give ber a neat twist sence there are so many weps and such that have reanimate on them give Ber a really cool reanimate.
4/ Have only a very little amout of items that are Indy. Like make Tyreals armor indy again maybe have some other 95s aswell or only 95s for that matter to be indy.
5/ Decreace the counters on Baals minoins cuz the lag is so bad but increase there dmg hitting you to make up for the change
thats about it for now don't feal like sitting here all day talking about Balance...

_________________
P.S. Have I superceeded your infininate need for proper English now or will your mind forever be locked in a perpetual stacis.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:28 pm
Posts: 183
Asteroth wrote:
First off the Mod right now as it stands is 3 times as hard as it was in 05 and 06. Only reason this mod ever became as hard as was in late 08 was becuase of single spawning and other exploits so Terry made the game Diffaculty to 3 spawn. And back then tps were not flagged ether so whats the bitch. And for the people that think its to easy then erase all your toons and start over simple as that.


Truth is when the difficulty was set to 3 person no matter. Id have to say it was the most enjoyable albeit frustrating at times on HC. I just came back and I have to say that personally this mod has become less and less challenging each time i come back. perhaps it's because of my personal experience but I remember years ago the first time i came upon bosses I played it with maximum safety. Now in HC I didnt use stat pnts until Worldstone on my bone nec in Norm.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:34 pm 
Game Server Host
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:33 am
Posts: 4292
dificulty was fine last season IMO

_________________
Bron wrote:
There's no cure for being a cunt.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 7:48 am 

Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 7:36 am
Posts: 87
Looks like I chose a terrible time to decide that I wanted to play a bit... easy mode ftl.


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:01 am 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:14 pm
Posts: 343
Location: Nevada/Arizona
JarL wrote:
Looks like I chose a terrible time to decide that I wanted to play a bit... easy mode ftl.


Pretty much

_________________
Oh dear god, why me?
This mother fucker hits hard
I'm out of cooldowns


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Make game harder
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 2:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:11 am
Posts: 977
Asteroth wrote:
I agree on flagging tps. But like Blue said when you start changeing gear such as Dscale and other 95's will throw the hole game out of wack.
I brought this up way back during the beta test for that big patch Terry worked on can't remmber year but Take eth out of the game you will see a big result in balance Examples.
1/ A1 cookie cutter mercs wont be over godly and the summon nec will have to do a little more then just being a tele chicken
2/ Barbs crazy dmg with eth wind hammer and eth rare Tmauls will be toned down
3/ Now the Zod rune hehe make that Cb instead of ber having cb give ber a neat twist sence there are so many weps and such that have reanimate on them give Ber a really cool reanimate.
4/ Have only a very little amout of items that are Indy. Like make Tyreals armor indy again maybe have some other 95s aswell or only 95s for that matter to be indy.
5/ Decreace the counters on Baals minoins cuz the lag is so bad but increase there dmg hitting you to make up for the change
thats about it for now don't feal like sitting here all day talking about Balance...

you know he didnt say that right? he said end game items themselves throw the game out of whack because you can't balance bosses around gear that is 10x as good as other options. Blue is completely for changing end game gear. However changing the 95's has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game as far as i'm concerned. In all the time I have played this game I have only ever had 1 dscale and 3 tyreals. no other 95s, maybe I dont grind enough, but even if I had aquired them, it would have made my 95+ toon really good but whats left at 95 anyways? maybe end of a4 and a5 hell?
The NUMBER ONE thing that will make the game harder is anti rushing measures. however with thte anti hack down I'm not sure if thats even an option anymore.

_________________
“Education has failed in a very serious way to convey the most important lesson science can teach: skepticism”


Top
 Offline Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron