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 Post subject: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:53 am 
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Fire wall is pretty worthless as a skill, lets face it. I would like to see a skill to give melee sorcs a fighting chance.

This is the idea for the skill

Name - Undecided
Only allows the use of melee and buff/debuff skills.
15% ar per level
50% FHR
physical damage boosted by 10% per level
5% life per level.
AoE effect damage to normal attack (2 yards)
10 second global skill cooldown

making it only allow the use of melee and buff skills will mean it is useless to the conventional sorc.

The buffs would really help the class out melee wise and would open up the melee sorc build to alot more people. An ar boost so using normal attack would still provide an ok chance to hit. The AoE aspect added to normal attack would make up for the relatively slow attack speed while using normal attack. The added phys damage would help with leeching problems that the build would suffer from. FhR is needed with a sorc, especialy if she is going toe to toe to deal damage

Opinions or ideas?
Edit: Ok i just spent an hour trying a couple of things. I only got an attack speed increase, slight static lifebuff and an AR boost on it atm. I gave it the "Set Glow" overlay since I know alot of people miss it at times. I ain't had time to change the skill description etc. Just the basic workings of it. I`ll spend a little more time on it later tonight and abit more over the weekend. I`ll try to get the discription etc done later and get the extra % life per level working (thinking something like 3% since they have ES what do you think?), along with the aditional time per level and the added damage + small aoe effect. I am thinking something more like 1 yard would be better personaly.
All you need to do is to make a sorc with hero editor and add to firewall then cast firewall and the state will come into effect. It blocks all the cast skills ATM and thats a problem. idealy you want to be able to use f armour/es etc.

One way to fix it is to make it activate after landing a hit and lasting for say 5 seconds at level 1 and gain .2 secs per level. So as long as she is hitting she has the buffs. If she steps back she will lose the buffs but can then cast spells?
Anyway, I'd love to hear some ideas.
This will work with any 1.10 d2 folder. Its created from the basic 1.10 patch so any 1.10 folder will do.
To run, extract files to Data/Global/Excel and run from a shortcut with -direct -txt
Remeber to re-extract the 1.21z update if you use your HU folder


Attachments:
Melee sorc skill(beta).rar [30.51 KiB]
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Last edited by PureRage-DoD on Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:06 am 
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I agree FWall is nearly useless (I only use it in the situations where I can't stand still but need to bring down something that won't walk or get knocked-back (TK) into my Blaze).

The only way I've heard of preventing the use of other skills is by capping their level to zero when you've placed a point into this new skill. The only way I know of preventing the use of ranged weapons is to make your skill an AttackSkill.

For your suggested skill, how about remove the phys dmg boost (you won't notice the loss of 200% or even 400% ED, since your stats will do that for you), and replace it with a synergy to Enchant that allows faster block rate. I'm not sure it's possible to have your skill give the sorc a 4 or 5 frame attack, but that would be a massive help. My melee sorc's attack speed with 85% ias is still pretty lame (2 or 3 attacks per second). However, if the small AoE mod (like DragonTail) is given to your skill, then maybe a slower attack is perfectly fine. Personally I don't notice any need for FHRecovery, since my sorc doesn't seem to take damage, also her Def and Block is high enough that monsters hit me once in about 13 swings (my def is low enough currently that they have 30% to hit me at times). That said, she's only in Normal, so I'm sure FHRecovery will be nice later.

How about you make a post in Strategy and Tactics forum describing where your melee sorc failed, and why she couldn't keep up. My melee sorc is doing great in normal so far, although she kills a bit slow, so I've been using Kuko bow with my merc to make trash faster. For bigger fights I always switch to melee though, if only for the shield block.

The biggest problem I see for melee sorcs is the huge number of mana burning monsters in HU. If it weren't for diamonds, my sorc would already be having troubles. I thought mana burn was supposed to deal quadruple damage to the mana bulb, but it seems like any critter in A4/5 normal can wipe out my 2k mana in a hit.


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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:22 am 
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locking out skills can be done, its implemented in another couple of mods. Im not sure how its done, but it could be some kind of an unlimited global timer while the buff is active. In effect once you are in that state you are in constant cooldown. That allows only buff spells (f armour/chant etc) and attack skills to be used while locking out the castable skills. I would have to look into it more. I`ll maybe spend some time on it over the weekend and perhaps even have a look at making the skill and posting it for people to try in single player. If I get time and If I have the basics right like I think I have lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:10 am 
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I supose its something like the werewolf/bear not being able to cast some spells while that state is active. It would be the same kinda thing but with no new look to the sorc. Maybe something to show that its active like a patch of flames at her feet always. That would be pretty cool.

Ideas for names for the skill? I'll hopefully get onto having a try at making it over the weekend so any other ideas for the skill would be good that we could try out.

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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:10 pm 
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Update: added base line skills.txt in my original post.

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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:28 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:

Opinions or ideas?


First thought I got when I read all:

If that skill is a substitute for firewall, that skill would be located on the "fire skill" tree.

If we asume all actual sorc-skills are related to his tech-tree ( xcept energy shield which is not exactly light based imo :P ), I think your new skill should have at least a little fire-based stat, if not, it would be as unrelated as adding Blessed Hammer to "offensive auras" on a paladin.

=====================

Appart of that:
I asume it will be a buffing skill like enchant or battle orders, with a timer, etc, right?
Maybe chanter sorcs will abuse that skill. They chant theirselves and[ insert name of the new skill here ] , they go on melee ,and they do their whole fire dmg on AoE ( huge ).
Also, if being a timer skill, its just about casting E.Shield before that new skill ( I dont know any source of dmg or curse able to remove e. shield appart of blowing mana to 0 in a single hit ), so sorc could be an overwhelming tank with the greatest regen mana ( nice warmth due to +x to fire skills which also would bonus the new skill ) , which means a good extra mana shield ( you wont use skills anyway , so its ok if ur mana blows up ), with a cool life buf with the skill itself ( even more if you are wearing "war armor" with inc stamina oskill 4 example ), and AoE dmg.

I see that completely outta and OP. Moreover, I find that building way boring. That sorc only buff urself, and go rush the enemy with almost no tactical , cause hes not even able to teleport away when buffed ( no skills at all ... ). At least barbs can leap away and dins can assist with auras at his disposal. I feel it lame.

Maybe I'm wrong and I dont state ur real point of view of the skill :P

My personal fixes:
#1: remove or change that 5% life per lvl. at lvl 20 is 100% ( double ) hp, at lvl 40 is 200% ( triple ) hp, proly more than a din or an average-equipped druid even with hoto ( ok, not that, but almost ).. should be calculated. you can both chant your a1 merc and tank with no issues... thats not fair IMO
If its really necessary to mark a difference between "standard sorc " hp from "melee sorc" hp... fine.
Adding 1% life per lvl would do a significant difference anyways. ( 40% at lvl 40 ).

#2
melee area dmg... well, its 2 yards, not much in the game.
But I thought about doing that AoE fire based dmg, but your physical boost from the single main strike is untouched, so you do both phys dmg from wpn, and extra fire dmg to surrounding. That fire dmg on AoE could be synergyed by enchant. ( % add at your disposal, I'm not a balancing master : :oops: ). I feel more reasonable at that way, even being a melee skill, its yet fire based.
#3 -> reducing a lil bit the AR, since enchant gives you AR boost already.
#4: For the god sake, let the sorc cast at least teleport , please .
Other chars can do it with oskills... why not the former char with the skill itself ? :P
#5: Adding "staff mastery" such as bone armor from necro is like a "wand mastery" or psn strike being "dagger mastery".

========

SUMMARY:

Name - Scorching hug / Fire Hug
Description:
Active: Only allows the use of melee, teleport, and buff/debuff skills.
Passive: Improves Staff fighting skill
-10% ar per level
50% FHR
-physical damage boosted by 10%, +5% extra lvl
-Fire Hug ( Aoe effect damage ) based on physical damage ( only procs. when striking enemy ) (2 yards)
-Staff mastery -> added damage: 60% / added attak: 30 / CS chance: 5% ( lvl 1 )
10 second global skill cooldown
Scorching hug / Fire Hug gets bonuses from:
Enchant : x% fire hug damage ( percentage addedalso based on phys dmg ) per level.


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Last edited by tonykantos on Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:31 am 
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Not realy related to the skill, but have you considered just making a build with:
20 Chant, 20 Warmth, 20 TK, 20 FrozenArmor, rest in FMastery
and then use "Ice" javs for the 50% lvl 50 FNova on strike (just melee with the javs)? That should be pretty close to your idea, and give you some information on how well it would work.

I've been messing with that above build, but using 20 IceBolt instead of 20 FArmor, and using "Wonder" flail. I've only got 5 points into IceBolt so far, so the lvl 40 Blizz/FOrb on the flail are only synergized by 25%, but when they go off, it's pretty decent, and essentially gives an AoE effect to my melee (also it's cold dmg, so I like it against fire immunes).

tonykantos:
Enchantresses can already abuse explosions on arrows with their chant, just like Amazons with +Fire dmg gear. With high %PierceTarget, it's very effective on mobs, especially if they gear a rogue the same way. The main difference I think with what PureRage is suggesting is that currently Enchantress do this at range instead of melee. They don't even bother spending points in TK usually, since they're not in the fight at all (they just focus on Enchant).

I agree with you that casting this spell shouldn't prevent casting Teleport or EShield, but PureRage already mentioned that he's trying to fix that in his first post (He's been editing it as he gets further).

Related to your suggested fixes
#2 Please give some suggestions (it would help explain what you mean). I can't see them in your discussion.
#3.b The ARating of Enchant is one of the lowest buffs in HU, so it alone won't be enough for a Sorc. Buffing Enchant's ARating isn't a good idea since it can be applied to builds that dont' need more AR.
#5 Staves are already covered by MaceMastery. However, I'm sure it's possible to limit a new mastery to just staves.

For the name of the skill, try using the Spanish word for "hug". For English speakers, "hug" comes across as something a mother might do with her child to show affection. However, if you use a foriegn language, you can trick English speakers into thinking that this skill is named something totally bad-ass.


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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:34 am 
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Brevan wrote:
tonykantos:
Enchantresses can already abuse explosions on arrows with their chant, just like Amazons with +Fire dmg gear. With high %PierceTarget, it's very effective on mobs, especially if they gear a rogue the same way. The main difference I think with what PureRage is suggesting is that currently Enchantress do this at range instead of melee. They don't even bother spending points in TK usually, since they're not in the fight at all (they just focus on Enchant).


But chanter do her dmg ( or her rogue's dmg ) based on fire. That skill bases his dmg on physical source, and AoE . You encounter loads of fire immunes , you know that pretty much more then me. Physical immunes are way less encountered , and easier to break with amp sources ( except wisps and that ). Yeah, LR can also break ele immus, but think about a Boss Pit lord, fire enchanted and/or spectral hit and other shit random mods ( ss maybe? ). with his minions around messing around No way to break that resists. Physical immunes tend to fly in circles and eventually you can avoid em . Well, beasts from a5 hell dont. But its a5 hell . Hard as idem

Brevan wrote:
#2 Please give some suggestions (it would help explain what you mean). I can't see them in your discussion.
.

removed #2, I realised actually its the same I wanted to say in #3 .

Brevan wrote:
#5 Staves are already covered by MaceMastery. However, I'm sure it's possible to limit a new mastery to just staves.


Oh, really they are ? didnt know, It looks like "weapon staff class", so I thought - Staves dont have a mastery because noone use em for hitting foes -. My bad


Brevan wrote:
For English speakers, "hug" comes across as something a mother might do with her child to show affection. .


I was specially refering to that: something lovely and cute, right?

Ah, btw, the name was an example to refer the skill, not a name a real fire skill could have... :D , when the idea is finished, Ill think about that properly, but not now ;)

Brevan wrote:
#3.b The ARating of Enchant is one of the lowest buffs in HU, so it alone won't be enough for a Sorc.


But maybe combined with the Hug ( Yes, I know, you love that name ! :) ), you get an acceptable ammount of ar. Again: maybe shoulda be tested.

And I didnt say anything about buffing chant... its powerful enough by now ^^


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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:29 am 
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The Skill name should be something like "Flames of Life"

ie. granting a life bonus. Remember that other melee builds get more life per point in vit. A sorc only gets 2 life per vit, so at level 20, the skill would grant them the same life as a paladin per point. Op? not for a melee build at all. Especialy as physical damage is very limited on the build and leeching is a problem. A melee sorc would still have a ard time progressing alone, much the same as a zealer has with no lifebuffs.

Also, the point about the life%. she needs level 20 skill to be on par with a pala. However. if the pala and the sorc are using the same oak, the pally's life will get a MUCH bigger boost from another lifebuff as he is not reliant on a % system to get the 4 life per vit. Even pure vit on a sorc at the min will probs only return 3k life with good melee equip. Oak and bo will not buff the already buffed life. I see nothing OP about this kinda skill in the slightest. It's hard to overpower a build that will need to use OSkill attack skills or normal attack. I'm open to ideas, but your post was lacking in that department.

Edit: also, teleport should be locked out. granting a sorc skill that increases life and lets you teleport while buffed is WAY to much. We want an alternative build skill. I don't see why there shouldn't be a skill to buff a sorcs physical attack damage. Zon's can use every element in the game, druids can use psn, cold, fire and phys. Pally can use fire, cold, light, and phys. sins can use every element in the game. Nec can use psn, mag and phys(summons/CE). Barbs are limited to phys and magical though. Sorcs are restricted elemental damage only. It is the only class who has no real boost to physical skills. I move to give them a chance to flex those muscles and give them a (slightly underpoewerd but novel) boost to physical damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:44 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
The Skill name should be something like "Flames of Life"

ie. granting a life bonus. Remember that other melee builds get more life per point in vit. A sorc only gets 2 life per vit, so at level 20, the skill would grant them the same life as a paladin per point. Op? not for a melee build at all.


Yes, combined with a prior casted e.shield and an awesome mana bulb + warmth lvl 20. Thats was my point , not only the life in its own. Only Mana burn enemies/skills would be a problem vs that sorc-tank.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
It is the only class who has no real boost to physical skills. I move to give them a chance to flex those muscles and give them a (slightly underpoewerd but novel) boost to physical damage.


Maybe you should think about necro phisical dmg: it doesnt come from necro itself, but from summons and a ranged skill.
Assuming necro and sorcs are pure caster chars ( they'r now, right? Even psn strike casts a psn cloud ), I think that physical boost you want should come from casts, not from "brute force"...

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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:54 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I don't see why there shouldn't be a skill to buff a sorcs physical attack damage.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Sorcs are restricted elemental damage only

Because sorcs are NOT meant for physical dmg.
They are MEANT for doing tri-elemental dmg : cold, fire, and light.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
Zon's can use every element in the game

But only weapon based element damage. And they can only use bows, xbows, javs, and spears. And shes kinda weak.
Anyway, as the description of the zon when creating : "shes a versatile warrior" or smthing like that, describes that variety of skills pretty well.

PureRage-DoD wrote:
sins can use every element in the game

Sins are quite party unfriendly.
===========
All chars got his own drawbacks ( maybe except necromancer, who only lacks on brute force )

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 Post subject: Re: Help out Melee sorcs.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:17 pm 
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sorcs are "party unfriendly" too in that respect. Every other class has some melee skills. It would be good to see another variation on a sorc instead of the standard builds.

You cant go "tri-element" at all, you can go 1 element and work or 2 half assed elements and be average.

Are you saying they cant use physical attacks because they are suposed to use magic? Why is it that a sorc cant have a usefull skill to attack in melee form? she has arms and legs, and she can swing a weapon.

The variety of builds is rather limited and viable options for novelty builds are few and far between as it stands. I personaly don't like to be stuck with the tried and tested old crap year after year. Alot of people have built pretty much every build going, good and bad. It must be time for some other options by now.

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