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 Post subject: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:58 am 
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Sensitive topic, but lets see if we can get some good discussion generated on the balance of poison dealing characters. There are 4 main psn dealing characters out there:

1. Rabies druid: Having personally tested this character through the game, I can say that it is pretty well balanced and probably doesn't have a problem. The recent 5% buff in patch 1.21x should take care of any weakness that might have been in the build before. Even though they have relatively low damage output compared to a necromancer, the ability to get 10k life, sturdy summons and switch to fury with an off weapon more than compensate. Suggestion: no change

2. Poison Jav: This girl seems to have the weakest poison output, but is also able to deliver it from a distance. To me, that justifies having the weaker psn. I do have some concerns about her viability early game - is she just someone how tags along with a party early game due to sucking? What other problems arrise with this build? My feeling is that the build seems pretty good and doesn't need to be tweaked, but I have extremely limited exposure to it and would love to see some solid discussion.

3. Nova/Strike Necro: Everyone's favorite punching bag. The skinny little dude unquestionably deals out the biggest DPS both in skill numbers and with the combination of LR at his fingertips. I think that many of us all know that a super decked out necro like Holyghost is just devastating - but how is the character without such overpowering gear? I know a lot of people have been building psn necros - so how are they making out? Do poison necros still have missed strikes? Or does everytime you hit a boss trigger the strike now? (several patches ago, you would have to hit a boss 3-5 times before you could successfully poison them with your psn strike)

My guess is that if psn strike is a 100% success skill due to the psn cloud now, that the psn cloud should be removed from it and the psn dmg should be only applied when a successful hit is scored. This will make the run/stab process much more dangerous and justify the massive dmg that it does. It is also possible that the total dmg needs to be rolled back a touch. Would like to hear from other people on it.

4. Venom Assassin: haven't heard much about this character one way or another, so I assume all is well.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:39 am 

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You pretty much have it the right way.

1. Rabies druids are just fine as it is now, pls don't change.

2. Poizons with the easier normal diff can be very safe. There are builds with way better DPS, but almost all that have to go in melee. I think these girls can hold the ground early game.

3. Poison necros yes, that poison cloud is just silly (it gets you the psn damage 100%), it shoud be removed. Go there hit the monsters to apply the psn is ok. Go there spam some psn clouds to apply the psn, go back watch them fall is just too easy for this kind of damage. Even without gear their skinny ass does good DPS, I think it is a bit high but you got hit once and you are dinner.

4. Venom assasin don't know. I have to try one.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:02 am 
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1) Rabies druids seem fine to me. Last I played one, I used Carrion bug, but I also didn't use about 20 skill points, so obviously I'd have used Carrion vine. When I played him, he was perfectly fine. I personally liked the fact that a druid can be poisoning critters while using another skill like Fury or ShockWave to get in additional DPS.

2) Poizons seem fine to me. The strategy of poison at a distance is perhaps too strong, and they are the only char with that advantage. Early game they are very strong, but they require a strategy similar to a Blazer (throw the jav, and lure through the smoke). If people are having trouble with poison javelin, then they're just being noobs and not learning how to use it efficiently. If PoisonJav had damage even 80% of plague jav, then I'd use it end game, since running from my enemies is an awsome strategy.

3) Poison Necros probably have too much gear in their favour. Unlike other classes, a Poison Necro will practically never come across an immune monster (aside from crap like catapults and gargoyle statues, but I wouldn't be surprised if a necro can break those immunities). In the early levels, they have lots of +Skills via wands and necro shields. Trang's shield in particular is impressively strong.

4) I haven't heard much of Venom Assasins either. I view Venom as a poison-abuse skill more than anything else. By level 47, and the "Pestilence" runeword, it's hard to pass up an extra 16k damage (assuming 1k Venom on an 8 second poison skill).

For the few assasins I've made, Venom seems to just be a nice small addition to their melee attack (e.g. my level 54 DClaw sin does about 2.5k to 5k with each claw, and with level 18 Venom it goes to 3.3k to 6k). I prevents monster healing, and does a little damage if you invest enough points into it. However, it's essentially impossible to deal more DPS with Venom than double it's current skill damage due to the 0.5 second duration (so having both of my claw strikes increase means nothing, since I attack several times a second and the poison is only applied twice). This means that if my assasin attacks 3 times a second (2 claw strikes each time), then my average DPS without venom is 22.5k, while with Venom it goes to about 24k.

It might be a good idea to cut the base damage of venom in half, (while preserving only the tier-4 and tier-5 damage since oSkills higher than level 24 take a lot of effort). After that, give it a 15% synergy from something ubiquitous, like Fade. The synergy combined with the lowered venom will make Venom on an assasin do double its current damage at low levels, and a little under 4 times it's current damage at very high levels. Given the math I just used before, I'm still not confident that this change will make Venom worthwhile, but It would add about 3.8k damage per second at skill level 18 with full synergy. That might be alright for a single-target skill added to a potentially strong DragonClaw attack.

I don't think change to Venom will be overpowered when paired with Cloak of Shadows. The Cloak doesn't affect bosses (I assume anything boss-flagged), and Venom is the only poison skill without a decent area of effect.

Summary:
1) No change
2) No change
3) Reduce skill damage or gear to compensate for reduced enemy resists
4.1) Reduce Venom base damage damage for tier 1, 2, and 3 by 50%.
4.2) Add synergy with Fade for +15% poison per hard level.
4.3) Add +10% ARating to Venom per level

<edit> Revised suggestion for Venom based on later feedback. Removed earlier suggestion to reduce chances of misunderstanding. </edit>


Last edited by Brevan on Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:21 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
3. Nova/Strike Necro: Everyone's favorite punching bag.


Indeed

HolyGhost necro is so famous around SC . In fact, he soloed sammy NM for me to get a prize of the dead ( I think he was bored ). Took him no more than 1 minute , lol :D

Appart of that godlike char, I've also done, weeks ago , a psn necro myself. I equipped it with total crap ( If I well remember, he was lvl 70-75, and still wearing peasant crown and a spirit shroud armor, and a1 phys rogue with upgraded vidala xDDD ). He could solo almost all NM xcept baal minions with enough patience.

The only drawback about wearing was it was SO weak... 1HKO every single monster beyond act3 .
The clue was not to be hit, playing and dancing with summons and the duration of the psn clouds and psn nova
once you get teleport by any source ( trangs seems to be the best bet ) and a painful merc, you should be almost invincible. Siege beasts and catapults are another history appart... '-'

My opinion: less psn duration on both nova psn strike cloud and reducing proportionally the dmg dealed by both skills, so necros are obligued to hit more times if they have a non-godlike rogue to kill ALL.

Brevan wrote:
4) Reduce Venom by 1/2 for tiers 1, 2, and 3. Introduce 15% damage Synergy via Fade.


I think the synergy should be Cloak of Shadows instead of Fade, I think the -% to enemy psn resist its gives shows it as a more reasonable synergy.
Also, maxing fade is already useful for almost all assassins due to the passive dr%, so if synergying CoS, maybe sin players will think about "shall I max fade, cloak, or both?"




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Last edited by tonykantos on Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:35 am 

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tonykantos wrote:
I think the synergy should be Cloak of Shadows instead of Fade, I think the -% to enemy psn resist its gives shows it as a more reasonable synergy.

Also, maxing fade is already useful for almost all assassins due to the passive dr%, so if synergying CoS, maybe sin players will think about "shall I max fade, cloak, or both?"



i agree. most assassins max fade, so giving fade another use just seems to make it overpowered. if they want access to all of these mods, they should have to invest heavily to get them.

the poison strike idea of making the attack actually require a hit was something i proposed a while back when a member suggested to heavily nerf poison necros. they should at least require some skill to work. i used a poison necro and with a trangs set and death web only (empty sockets, no charms, no other gear) i was still able to take down some bosses alone in hell at level 82. if i were to get him some filled sockets for some protection and some better gear, theres no question he would be able to take down a lot of bosses solo. they only require: 1) summons to distract the boss, 2) walk in and swing once to activate the cloud, 3) walk away, heal, 4) repeat until dead. and they kill pretty quickly. my guy was doing 130k with that setup alone (again, nothing in any other gear slots... jewelry, sockets, boots were all empty), and i remember after a death or two i was able to regroup and hit hell juggy maybe only 10 times or so to get rid of him.

poizons are fine.

rabies druids are fine.

as for the actual proposed changes to venom...i havent seen them be used often enough to know how good or bad they are.


Last edited by muleofal on Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:43 am 
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Tony, are you stating the the -%Res of Cloak of Shadows is already powerful enough to act as a synergy (so no change to Venom)? Or are you stating that Cloak of Shadows should give the 15% synergy to Venom instead of Fade.

I don't think Cloak as the 15% dmg synergy is bad, but just remember than when you increase the damage while decreasing the enemy resistance, you're improving the skill exponentially (e.g. if skill does 1 dmg, synergy is 100% with -100%Res per level. At 0 synergy points, skill does 1 damage, at 1 point, skill does 4 damage, at 2 points, skill does 9 damage, etc...). Conviction and Vengeance synergize this way, and clearly Soulmancer has no problem with it. Personally I prefer synergies between skills that the character might not have used together normally (I think it promotes variety), but that's not appropriate in this case (we want to narrow this melee skill's use to melee Assasins).

One issue is that Cloak of Shadows exists as charges on items (Cloak is a great skill for non-Sins), so people will gain the synergy we meant only for Assasins. I would have suggested ClawMastery for the synergy, but I don't think kicksins bother with it (they might get Venom too, I don't know). Fade was the only melee-centered assasin skill I could think of that most Assasins can get, but it is too strong to be used as charges on items.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:01 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
Tony, are you stating that Cloak of Shadows should give the 15% synergy to Venom instead of Fade.



that.

Brevan, think about that if you wanna be a "VenomSin" with CoS synergy, you will at least invest 80 pts ( 20 Claw Mast, 20 CoS, 20 Fade, 20 Venom ) to do your VenomSin acceptable. Not much points to waste in any other skills ( MB maxing a shadow ? )

Also , unless you use Chaos claws, You will be single monster killer. Kinda sux vs mobs, if not supported by a competent team or merc.
CoS doesnt work on bosses ( only the %ehanced defence ), so its not that overpowered in my opinion.

Brevan wrote:

One issue is that Cloak of Shadows exists as charges on items (Cloak is a great skill for non-Sins), so people will gain the synergy we meant only for Assasins.


And also as OSkill :P
The fact is VenomSin would be another kind of Shadowsin ( shadow disciplines ), so equipping your sin with gear with lots of +x to shadow disciplines, ( even shadow disciplines skillers on later game ) will overwhelm the trivial boost other chars can get from that CoS on charges. And if thats an issue yet ( I cant remind a CoS charge item, so I dont know the lvl it gives ), its easily fixed: Nerf those charges to LvL 5


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Last edited by tonykantos on Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:11 pm 
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I'll wait for Ben to get in here for exact details about Venom damage, but I've played with and discussed his Whirlwind assassin with him enough to know at least a little about Venom.

It needs a buff. The build needs great gear to hold it's own in Tundra. And I'm not talking just uniques, but decked out in skillers, facets, and pre-buffing.

I know this isn't a suggestion topic promoting WWsin, but the only two builds that come to mind that would really benefit from high Venom damage is Blade Fury and WWsin. So I think discussion of said build warrants value.

Possibly make Venom as 60 point build to compensate for the damage boost? I sort of agree that Fade shouldn't be a synergy, as stand alone that skill is amazing for any assassin to max. Cloak of Shadows makes sense, and possibly an obscure skill like Death Sentry or Blade Shield?

I'd also like to see some +AR% added to Venom. A small amount or something. Maybe +10% per point? WWsin & BF sin both have a decent amount of AR issues, and that could help.
I understand this could also bring up problems with other classes buffing with Venom, but honestly, I don't think our concern should be about it as an oSkill at the moment. I believe it should be a better path build for the actual class before we worry about oSkilling. That's hard to word. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's best to balance Venom around the Assassin first and not around the oSkill potential.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:14 pm 
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Psn java is fine the way it is, a bit weak mid-game but otherwise fine. Mines doing around 210k/8,6sec now at 97 with great gear. Might be a bit weak without good gear though, but not sure on how you should tweak it so that it won't be way to OP with the gear I have now (Templars /w facets, Griffs, psn boots, +3 jav gloves, credendum+telling, hhg and 7 or so skillers.)


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
an obscure skill like Death Sentry or Blade Shield?



Death Sentry is not obscure.
Death Sentry is sweet. Almost like CE from necro. "Una pasada", we would say here in Spain.

Abominae wrote:
I'd also like to see some +AR% added to Venom. A small amount or something. Maybe +10% per point? WWsin & BF sin both have a decent amount of AR issues, and that could help


With maxed claw mastery u got AR issues on WW? Woah... how? Invest some points on dex, use dex charms...


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:40 pm 
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tonykantos wrote:
Abominae wrote:
an obscure skill like Death Sentry or Blade Shield?



Death Sentry is not obscure.
Death Sentry is sweet. Almost like CE from necro. "Una pasada", we would say here in Spain.

Abominae wrote:
I'd also like to see some +AR% added to Venom. A small amount or something. Maybe +10% per point? WWsin & BF sin both have a decent amount of AR issues, and that could help


With maxed claw mastery u got AR issues on WW? Woah... how? Invest some points on dex, use dex charms...



By obscure I meant clearly unrelated to Venom. Much like Fade was.

Claw Mastery gives a total of +250% AR at level 20. That's not very much and unlike a lot of other characters who rely on AR, this pretty much your only source of it (IE: A maxed attack skill such a Zeal, Whirlwind, Fury). Also, unlike other melee characters, you're focusing on caster gear. This sort of gear doesn't exactly give massive amounts of melee friendly modifiers.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Abominae wrote:


By obscure I meant clearly unrelated to Venom. Much like Fade was.


Okey, missunderstanding problem solved =)

Abominae wrote:
Claw Mastery gives a total of +250% AR at level 20. That's not very much and unlike a lot of other characters who rely on AR, this pretty much your only source of it (IE: A maxed attack skill such a Zeal, Whirlwind, Fury).


But you are not gonna have 20 points... you are going to have way more than 40 if well centered on +shadow boost. Dont you think so?

Abominae wrote:
Also, unlike other melee characters, you're focusing on caster gear. This sort of gear doesn't exactly give massive amounts of melee friendly modifiers.

Hey, hold on.
Caster gear?
Im reminding now Natalya's armor:
+225 Defense
+(113-150) to Life (Based on Character Level)
+2 to Shadow Disciplines (Assassin Only)
Poison Length Reduced by 75%
Poison Resist +50%
+1 to Assassin Skill Levels
Cannot be Frozen
Socketed (4)
It does not show as a caster... and the lack of dr% is solved by maxing fade
you are not really needing enhanced damage , you rely on poison , so, as I said... use poison facets.

I dotn get your point at all :P


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:10 pm 

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considering we will be needing AR to apply the venom, 250% or even 500% isnt much. most melee characters get 1000% or more AR.

and abom's point is that the good caster gear to get our damage up wont come with things like %AR and such. thats why im guessing he is proposing an AR% boost to venom.

he is right though, WWsins and BFsins usually lack real AR like other melee builds.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:25 pm 
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tonykantos wrote:
Brevan, think about that if you wanna be a "VenomSin" with CoS synergy, you will at least invest 80 pts ( 20 Claw Mast, 20 CoS, 20 Fade, 20 Venom ) to do your VenomSin acceptable.
Consider instead the point distribution of 20 Venom and 20 Fade. 1 point in CoS, 1 pt in ClawMastery (More if you're going WW), so that you've got some points for an attack skill like DragonClaw or some Martial arts. I recommended Fade because melee assasins will get it anyways, there's no point punishing a Venom build by forcing them to spend another 20 points into yet another skill with diminishing returns. Using Fade will keep the Venomsin to a 20 point add-on to another build (just about all assasins can max Fade without suffering, so Venomsin just adds 20 points). The only benefit to maxing CoShadows currently is the defence boost, but the enemy ai is already messed up, so it never really matters except for bosses (but their ARating is so high your block and level is all that matters anyways).

I didn't follow your comment on the CoS oSkills. Last I heard, oSkills will not synergize, so I only mentioned charges. Don't forget that one of the purposes of my suggestion of reducing Venom before adding the synergy buff is so that other poison-using character can't abuse Venom oSkills. At level 47, adding 16k damage to your poison attack should be really significant (I recall soloing HForge dragon with my Poizon in about 20 seconds via 4 javs). We're trying to balance the poison skills, so we should prevent this easy-abuse by other poison builds. I agree that lvl 1 CoS oskills will prevent the problem well enough, but I was trying to keep the number of changes to a minimum (we're starting to request a search of all items to conform to our suggestion).

Abominae:
I also support giving Venom an ARating boost. Adding 10% ARating per level of Venom sounds great (this number appears to bring the assasin up to other player's ARating levels). This will also give other melee a reason to continue using Venom oskills, and will help the assasins as you mentioned.

I don't think adding the ARating will overpower Venom because it is a single-target skill. Any attack other than WW (not available until around level 60 isn't it?) will be killing pretty slowly, so this change will only make it a bit more consistent for killing bosses.

CoS vs Fade:
I'm not suggesting Fade because it's related to poison effects, I'm suggesting it because it is very likely that all melee assassins will use it. If Mancer really goes forward with making CoShadows a synergy, then you'll end up a situation where at level 36, you've got a fully synergized skill with about 80% Mastery damage being applied via CoS. That will make your first few points rediculously overpowered for the effect they're going to have. With Fade, you'll still have the fully synergized skill (which would be about double it's current damage), but you'll have to wait for the Mastery boost until you've either invested in CoS, or you have sufficient +Skills to earn it. The increases in venom damage will be stretched out over a longer period of the game, rather than a shorter burst between lvl 36 and 56 (after that it's +Skills).

It's been mentioned that Fade already does a lot, but it really only does %Res for low leveled assasins. The DR% won't be noticed until you've got it to at least level 20, and the curse and pois reduction isn't a big issue in normal (although it certainly is nice for A4 and up). Pumping Fade gives no offensive boost, so you practically "waste" these point in normal since there are few serious threats. CoS gives defence, -%Def for enemies, messes with AI, and -%PoisRes. The -%Def, -%PoisRes, are both powerful offensive effects, so I don't think we need yet another offensive-boost via the synergy to Venom.

I suppose in the end, the main advantage of Fade over CoS is to save skill points instead of stretching the "Venomsin" build over too many skills, which Tony already mentioned would be silly (no points left over for an attack skill). Considering just how weak Venom is for Assasin characters (but not other poison builds), it's hard to overpower it for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Brevan wrote:

I didn't follow your comment on the CoS oSkills. .


tried to joke about that. The rest of your comment is self-answered :)


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:09 pm 
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I understand where you're coming from, but I'd still like to see Venom be a 60 point build.

If you make both Fade & Cloak of Shadows synergies, it's a 60 point build with room for maxing both Claw Mastery and Dragon Claw. It gives people a valid reason to max Cloak of Shadows (besides the %Defense it adds, of course) and I think that's a very good thing. But honestly, any buff to Venom and I'd be happy.

The added AR would be very nice, and would ease the pressure on a WWsin and Bladesin. I'm glad no one mentioned CoS -%Def being a solution to AR because, as we know, CoS doesn't effect bosses and even some stronger mobs.
The added AR may also open a path for different Assassin builds. Multishot Venom Sin was always something I wanted to make, but with crappy Venom damage and no AR, I couldn't see the build ever really going anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:17 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
The added AR may also open a path for different Assassin builds. Multishot Venom Sin was always something I wanted to make, but with crappy Venom damage and no AR, I couldn't see the build ever really going anywhere.


this reminds me of the venom bowsin in bnet. it used the oskill guided arrow from the widowmaker unique bow and actually was a very effective dueler and a decent boss killer (not like boss-killing was hard, especially when there were builds who could do hell bosses in a few hits). the multishot oskill on the gloves can be an option (ive always thought of the possibility on an enchant sorc), but as you mentioned the AR issues still come into play.

edit: didnt even see the eaglehorn bow, which has both multi and guided as oskills. interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:04 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
I'll wait for Ben to get in here for exact details about Venom damage, but I've played with and discussed his Whirlwind assassin with him enough to know at least a little about Venom.

It needs a buff. The build needs great gear to hold it's own in Tundra. And I'm not talking just uniques, but decked out in skillers, facets, and pre-buffing.

I know this isn't a suggestion topic promoting WWsin, but the only two builds that come to mind that would really benefit from high Venom damage is Blade Fury and WWsin. So I think discussion of said build warrants value.

Possibly make Venom as 60 point build to compensate for the damage boost? I sort of agree that Fade shouldn't be a synergy, as stand alone that skill is amazing for any assassin to max. Cloak of Shadows makes sense, and possibly an obscure skill like Death Sentry or Blade Shield?

I'd also like to see some +AR% added to Venom. A small amount or something. Maybe +10% per point? WWsin & BF sin both have a decent amount of AR issues, and that could help.
I understand this could also bring up problems with other classes buffing with Venom, but honestly, I don't think our concern should be about it as an oSkill at the moment. I believe it should be a better path build for the actual class before we worry about oSkilling. That's hard to word. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's best to balance Venom around the Assassin first and not around the oSkill potential.

I strongly agree with a buff to venom. I played a wwsin early in the season after reading bens post about his old wwsin.
drrod wrote:
Terrible against trash, even worse against bosses but one of the most fun builds I have ever played


I found the ar issues the most frustrating, but the damage of venom was also a problem. Early game she was basicaly a dclaw sin against bosses and used 1 point dtail and tiger strike to deal with trash. She was pretty much untwinked and I get amazing luck doing NM RoF runs with edd and found an ohm! before that she used dclaw to deal out the posion damage and cast death sentrys to clear the trash. against bosses she used 1 point blade fury to keep him green throughout the fight.

The venom damage is pretty worthless until endgame with a ton of skillers. The benefit of being able to prebuff with bramble and +3 venom "pestialnce" claws and use +poison% equip really helped her but she had to carry 2 sets of equip with her to get the damage to a reasonable level. prebuff claws, +poison% rings with sin skills (took ages to craft decent ones) and poison skill boots. That was her prebuff equip mid/late game.

After buffing I would have to switch to her attack equip. AR% +dex/str blood rings with sin skills. I used bramble when I first made it as the +% poison damage is added to your damage after buffing so if you have 5k venom and a 25% bramble, you will get an extra 1250 venom damage. Almost all her attack gear was ar%, +dex or lifeleech based. Even so she would miss alot of the time.

Venom is also a skill that means you need to be hitting at all times to deal the poison damage. No other poison build is dependant on always hitting and standing toe to toe with enemys. You do get CoS to lower def and resistance. This helps alot against the enemys with the smoke over them But once they are gone you need to wait for the cooldown until you can cast again. This was a major problem and was only rectified by puting CoS on left click so my shadow would spam it. this requires client side edits though and not everyone has them (unfortunately). Making CoS a left click skill naturaly would help this build ALOT and should really be implemented.

Skills wise I went
Max - claw mastery, venom, fade, death sentry and shadow master.

the massive radius on maxed death sentry saved this build for me and she was able to at least farm on her own. However, a trapsin would have had a much easier time of it.

I forget the duration on the timer for CoS now. (30 secs or 60).
If it is 30 secs there should be a timer reduction of 1 second per hard point. if its 60 seconds, then a timer reduction of 2 seconds per hard point. Not the effect though. Leave the effect at the same duration. Just reduce the timer so you can cast again to use the curse like aspect of it. That way it can be cast in curse form against trash. That would fix both the damage aspect and the AR aspect of the build. It would not however give any help against bosses (except the defence of the sin) so perhaps giving it an ar% boost to the sin while active. This would not weaken the boss in any way. I'm not sure how may of the passive effects have been used on it yet though.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:22 am 

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Blue you must be trolling right ? thanks for the laugh ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:45 am 
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Brevan wrote:
you'll end up a situation where at level 36, you've got a fully synergized skill with about 80% Mastery damage being applied via CoS


THe same happens with P.hammer.... lvl 28 and you got a lvl 1 fully synergied M.blast and maxed hammer, and thats OP already, does someone blame? No , because its self-balanced on later game.

Same would happen with venom. Kinda powerful at the beginning? Ok, I cant negate that. but its just ONE synergy. Not as powerful when you reach lvl 60-70.

And thats why I suggested the CoS synergy, so you can add a boost to venom, but if you want that, you must spend more points, so you balance a lil bit your damage ( all kind of melee sins will max fade, so synergying it, will occur that all sins get a nice venom to cast... I dont wanna deal with that, so cheap imo )

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:41 am 
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Tony, you've got to be trying to troll me now. You didn't even mention the 80% Mastery bonus due to lowered resistances, and yet that was the whole point of the sentence you quoted. Just after that, I mentioned that Fade could potientially (and probably) be maxed for a full synergy to Venom, but at least it doesn't include the Mastery effect to double the Venom damage yet again.

I've already stated why Fade is the better choice to use as the synergy. I've already stated that CoS as a synregy is putting all your Venom offence in one place, which isn't a good idea. I've even used math to help show that these aren't my opinions on the matter, they are just the facts of the matter.

When my first post recommended that the synergy be discussed more, I was hoping someone would debate the 15% buff compared to maybe 20% or something. I was figuring someone with experience with melee sins would mention that their fully geared Venomsin with Bramble does 6.25k Venom, so after all their buffing their Venom got a measly 13k dps, and even then it was only if they were constantly in the fight or using BFury. Currently, with 15% as the synergy, that Sin would probably do something like 40k dps to a single target (not counting whatever attack they're doing, which I think sounds reasonable, so I'll leave my suggested synergy at 15%.

It's true that with Fade as the synergy, most Assasins will have access to Venom fully synergized. This means that they'll have twice as much Venom damage as they do now. That's exactly what my suggestion was going for, since Venom currently is too weak to be noticed. Only if the assasin maxes Venom, will they get into skill levels higher than level 24, where the Venom damage will be four times higher than it is currently.

After seeing some of the other posts, what I'd like Venom changed to is:
1) Reduce damage for tier 1, 2, and 3 by 50%
2) Add synergy with Fade for +15% poison per hard level
3) Add +10% ARating to Venom per level

I can't think of much else to add to the suggestion, but you're welcome to dissagree with it. If you support your suggestion well and it appears to be better than mine, then I'd even vote for it. A good way to support your suggestion is to point out the flaws with mine and the benefits of yours. Try to use some math or something else to show just how much better your idea is. For example, you mentioned that doubling the damage of low level Venom would be too cheap, just explain why. If you just keep hammering on the points I've already defended against without adding new insights, then it doesn't really help your side of the debate other than having the last say.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:28 pm 
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I think the endgame damage of venom is a little on the weak side but still workable. I think bens was around 18k venom, at skill level 60+. That was endgame with heart, brain, anni and lots of skillers. Pretty much all facets etc. Mine hit around 10k venom at level 95 before she was deleted. i think a slight buff as the venom is not spread over a large area would be a nice touch. Other poison skills/builds have the ability to poison the enemy then stand back. Not so with the WWSin and she has no self lifebuffs to help her there.

I still think adding a "Hardpoints reduce cooldown" on CoS would do alot to help the build. It is pretty much just mastery, fade and venom as it stands so throwing another skill in there would seem reasonable.

I dont think a damage synergie from CoS would work well as early/mid game you are getting twice the bang for your buck. It could lead to some problems and be hard to blance. What about a synergie with cobra strike? That would be a nice twist I tink and would provide a decent alternative to go with against bosses. Use cobra strike to help in boss fights as you need to always be hitting with venom for it to be efficient.

I`ll dobble check the damages and have a think tomorow after work. Bed time now i fear :P

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Ok, my sin (87) has 45lvl venom (4.5-5.5k) and its not that much on hell with all that resistant mobs around(1/3 black marsh in a1 is nearly psn imm, not telling about whole a2).It really needs synergy and I can agree with CoS. CoS -psn effect(and blind) doesnt work on bosses and stonger mobs, so making it as synergy like -2% res and +7%psn skill per hard point could help it on some areas - 40% isnt that much when other poisoners can use dweb(with lr), emerald'ed wpns and wait, while sin cant just max psn with facets and skip life/def/leech/phys dmg. This way 45lvl venom with maxed CoS would be 15k avg dps with -40% compared to 27k dps 51lvl plague with -81%psn res from gear(still can add 4 psn facets)
Quote:
I still think adding a "Hardpoints reduce cooldown" on CoS would do alot to help the build.
This can be tricky - CoS also gives def bonus, so maybe reduce cooldown and increase duration of defense buff or overall skill, radious could be lowered.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:07 pm 
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Brevan wrote:
Tony, you've got to be trying to troll me now.


No sir,

Brevan wrote:
All the rest of the post.


Brevan wrote:
you're welcome to dissagree with it. If you support your suggestion well and it appears to be better than mine, then I'd even vote for it. A good way to support your suggestion is to point out the flaws with mine and the benefits of yours. Try to use some math or something else to show just how much better your idea is. For example, you mentioned that doubling the damage of low level Venom would be too cheap, just explain why. If you just keep hammering on the points I've already defended against without adding new insights, then it doesn't really help your side of the debate other than having the last say.


I'm so sorry english is not my first language, neither my second language. Here on catalonia we learn to speak both spanish and catalan ( two different langs ) and then when we grow up we try to learn by ownselves a lil bit selfdefending english ( useless school and teachers nowadays ).

I'm so sorry I cannot explain my own ideas properly because I'm not able to
master english .

greetings...



ps:
a) I need more eng. studying
b) language barreers stinks bad
c) Out of these forum thread , at least till I acompish "a)" :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:25 pm 

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my two cents....ive built poizon and psn necro this month.......both same about of damage level for level.........

slightly less damage but its ranged on zon and necro gets more but hes gotta hug diablo to do any damage............


that being said how bout just lowering the lower res ability by about half for the curse for just poison

I personally think that having to get that close to a hell marlyth with only 6-10k life makes it balanced....at least for hc. I am sure in sc they would just spend the points on str and psn facet everything. But in hc........thats a sure way to end up with ur deeds "being remembered"

Venom sin.............whats this.........havnt seen one in hc this ladder? And when i ask pple say what the hell would u wanna make that weak ass build for

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:34 am 
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Just the cooldown would be lowered. The effects duration should remain te same as it is now. It just means you can recast for the curse effect more often.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:47 am 

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Just make a simple venom based claw, easy fix. There are tons of elite claw bases not being used for uniques. Venom damage is weak, but only because sin's lack a strong poison based claw(among others). I hate it when Mancer decides to buff something and does it via messing with synergies. I'd rather he roll out some new items to buff particular builds/weak skills. New items catered to specific builds are much more fun than slapping on a 15% damage synergy.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:46 am 

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I did some thinking about this, and i think we all can agree psn necro is op.

Here is my fix

leave the damage alone but shrink the aoe on psn nova and make it an aoe like blades shield, or maybe make it like that thrown poison potion and make it thrown then slow up the damage ie 30k over 15 seconds instead of three. So this would be the boss killer version of a necro. The other three real builds are more of trash killers then boss. Just my two gold worth hehehe.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Just to re-open this discussion, there is an important part of poison damage that some people aren't aware of.

Back when I was debating the power of the rabies druid there were many arguments that the build was too weak because of low DPS and I tried to explain that how the DPS was applied was a very important component of its balance. I think that now that people have seen how well psn destroys bosses that they are starting to understand that.

I believe that the DPS is working about as it should, but I just want to be sure so I figured I would get the opinions of other psn dealers out there. When I play my rabies druid in a party (back when he was doing about 100k dmg over 8.2 seconds, or 12k DPS), he rarely does a high enough DPS to score the kills when facing trash. I think this is mostly that every strike by a character lands a hit and delivers damage. Therefore the dmg patterns of a character that is doing lets say 40k dps will be:

40k, 40k, 40k, 40k, 40k, 40k, 40k, 40k, 40k, 40k
compared to my
12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k

However, once we get to a boss the situation changes as that person has a hard time actually landing a hit on the boss. The damage patterns will then change down to:

40k, -, -, 40k, -, -, -, -, 40k, 40k, -, 40k, -, -
whereas my damage will remain consistent
12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k, 12k

When this adds up over the long run, you have a VERY effective amount of dmg being delivered to a boss, which I think is why you see psn as such a powerful boss killer.

This all seem reasonable?

If so, it puts balance in a sticky situation as you have to be careful not to overNerf psn dmg or else these characters will have a horrible time dealing with trash.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:00 pm 
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I'd feel better if u represented it in MSpaint.. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:03 pm 
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hunterAS wrote:
I'd feel better if u represented it in MSpaint.. :)


4b ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:22 pm 
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yes, you're my god.
Quote:
Back when I was debating the power of the rabies druid there were many arguments that the build was too weak because of low DP
Quote:
I was tagging along with Lord_Soth's level 56 healer to finish up A2 with my lvl28 Rabies druid and letting his prayer pump me through the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:54 pm 
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point being?

As I have responded before about that - no one seemed to feel that Rabies was a problem in normal. Given that normal has been further reduced since I posted, that is even more relevant.

If you really think that rabies needs a boost, you clearly have not played a Rabies druid.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:51 pm 
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If the melee builds are missing 2 out of every 3 hits then they dont have enough ar. Simple as that. My ww barb has no problems with ar at level 90. Around 20k so far, with room to grow a good bit. He is taking down bosses at a crazy rate. Alot faster than a poison build.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:57 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
If the melee builds are missing 2 out of every 3 hits then they dont have enough ar. Simple as that. My ww barb has no problems with ar at level 90. Around 20k so far, with room to grow a good bit. He is taking down bosses at a crazy rate. Alot faster than a poison build.


How's he do against Nihla, because my rabies druid just rocks against Hell nihla.

There is more to missing a hit than just AR.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:10 am 
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he's only up to trav, against all the hell bosses so far they go down in a very short time. It was the same when he was in NM, against mehisto he was amazingly strong at level 75 or so. That was using the crappy blood tree stump too. In act 4 he ws amazing once he got a cranium basher.
In act 5 he was again, pretty amazing. I didnt bother with nihla since the rewards are so crap for that quest. On baals minions he made a big impact in our 3 man team and took a couple of mins against each one. Vs baal I was amazed at the sheer speed he was dead. Using conc (1 pointed too) with around 16k ar he was dead in moments.

since hell its been much the same, Bosses that teleport are still not really a problem as i can get 4 to 5 secs of wwing around them (4fpa for 5 secs makes for 20 attacks at 36k ww).

Its not hard to get hefty ar without any major damage drops. As long as you choose your equip wisely.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison Damage
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Steel wrote:
It really needs synergy and I can agree with CoS. CoS -psn effect(and blind) doesnt work on bosses and stonger mobs, so making it as synergy like -2% res and +7%psn skill per hard point could help it on some areas - 40% isnt that much when other poisoners can use dweb(with lr), emerald'ed wpns and wait, while sin cant just max psn with facets and skip life/def/leech/phys dmg. This way 45lvl venom with maxed CoS would be 15k avg dps with -40% compared to 27k dps 51lvl plague with -81%psn res from gear(still can add 4 psn facets)


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