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 Post subject: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:09 pm
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Ok so im fairly new to HU mod and its been an incredible journey to a5 hell on my first char. I sure planned on playing a trapsin as it was my favorite build in vanilla, and it didnt seem to be too terrible at a glance in HU either, til I saw today how the traps are placed... All I could scream out was "WHAT THE FUCK?!" as I noticed that I could not place them where I wanted to.

So I basically just want to know.. why was this changed to be placed on top of this assassin? As it may seem more "real" since its not magically created at a distance, this makes the build obsolete by far and it is very discouraging to see this.

Sorry for the rage, I just can't let this go...

As for the suggestion... please let them be cast from a distance again...

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:42 pm 
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If traps were able to be placed at a distance, they could easily be abused. It allows you to kill bosses from afar, never even having to come in contact with them.

Honestly, I've played a trapsin to hell, and after awhile you really don't even notice it. They are in no way an obsolete build, in fact they're pretty good. My fire trapper isn't anywhere near complete and she can clear Tundra at a respectable pace.

You should probably play a build before you call them obsolete. The real shitty part about trappers is the lack of specialized gear and the fact MPK doesn't work with traps. I hate having to pop mana potions when I'm level 90+.

Trappers get great life for a caster, as well as two recastable tanks. Not to mention respectable block without trying and stacking -res is much easier on an assassin due to the fact you dual-wield. My trapsin has around -90% enemy resistance with no facets and not even Moonstone rubies in her Firelizards. Not to mention she has incredible DR for a caster due to Fade. Something around 35-40% at the moment, and none of that is from gear.


Now Shock Web... That's a trap skill we need some suggestions about.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:51 pm 

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there is no strategic placement involved in this build therefor it is obsolete in my mind... its ok for others probably but it derails the build to me by far.

i would still like to know why this was changed; even with your post with experience on this horrible change, i am not swayed to bother.... now this whole idea of killing bosses from afar, it doesnt work too well if Mind Blast doesn't work on them, enlighten me please (also i was going to do lightning with elemental claws etc, quite different than fire traps...)

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:03 pm 
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What's the real strategy in placing a trap in front of a monster? I don't understand what strategy has to do with anything really. If anything, you have to plan more strategic placement due to the fact they drop at your feet and you can't get raped while doing so. Course, my fire trapper is on HC, and running into a crowd of monsters in caster gear is never fun.

Diablo II enemy AI is stupid. You'd be able to kite them to a place where traps can do continually damage while the boss is unable to hit you.


And if you're making a hybrid that uses the lightning claw skills with lightning traps, why does it even matter that the traps fall at your feet? You're already in the fray anyway, and it's not like flanking is really an advantage in Diablo II.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:03 pm 

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trappers are underused for some reason, but as abom mentioned, they get almost caster-like ability to kill and almost tank-like survivability mods. in fact, for some reason i dont see many assassins. Fade is probably the best survivability skill in the game with the large res bonus, 1%DR per soft point, and easily able to get almost 3/4 curse duration reduction. BoS can be stacked with fade, and IMO run/walk speed is a great asset to staying alive as well. Not to mention the choice of mind blast if you feel necessary, which can convert extra tanks on top of the shadows. Weapon block allows for almost max 75% block without needing any dexterity, and it also blocks some skills that normal shield block cannot (theres a list somewhere online that will list the skills). Low gear requirements too, with firelizards requiring 80 str/dext and shadowdancers requiring 100 str/dext.

most trappers 1 point death sentry for the trash killing, at least from what ive heard. it helps too with those reviving monsters (fallens, skeletons, chargers).

in terms of placement, i dont see any problem with it being cast at their feet. casting it anywhere you want can make it too easy. they have enough at their disposal to stay alive.


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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:15 pm 

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Abominae wrote:
What's the real strategy in placing a trap in front of a monster? I don't understand what strategy has to do with anything really.

placing a trap blindly in front of a mob isnt strategic at all, and it's far different with lightning sentry, as its a narrow 1-way destination

Abominae wrote:
If anything, you have to plan more strategic placement due to the fact they drop at your feet and you can't get raped while doing so. Course, my fire trapper is on HC, and running into a crowd of monsters in caster gear is never fun.

you seem to have just agreed with me that traps laying on top of you is rediculous


Abominae wrote:
And if you're making a hybrid that uses the lightning claw skills with lightning traps, why does it even matter that the traps fall at your feet? You're already in the fray anyway, and it's not like flanking is really an advantage in Diablo II.

elemental crafted claws. i never said anything about being a hybrid


I'm just going to leave this post at rest as no one here seems to understand, and I'm far too lazy to go back to vanilla, recreate my trapsin from long ago and re-experience it, just to throw out all that sucks about the trap-laying. Just another assassin right here that isn't being made.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:29 pm 
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I've played a Lightning trapper a bit too, and I don't see where all your talk of strategy comes from. And no, I did not agree with you.

I misread then, because it sounded like you were stating you'd be using claws for attacking, otherwise I don't know why you would have mentioned crafted claws like they would significantly change your build.

I just don't quite understand the big deal, as it's really not one. I also don't like characters being called trash by people who haven't bothered to play them.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Elemental weapon crafts have lightning peirce. It's actually pretty clever to craft the claws in this way, since you'd retain claw block while getting decent lightning peirce not easily gotten any other way. I think someone recently said they'd tested and proven that -%Res from both claws affects traps.

Not that it matters though, for some reason x3n0x1d3 has already irrevocably concluded that everyone else who had made Trappers since Mancer changed traps to feet-only were wasting their time. I'd recommend Hydra to him, since those have all of the "strategic" placements that traps used to, but he's already mentioned that he's not going to read this thread. Perhaps he had already dismissed hydra sorcs because they didn't have the summons or other defensive skills of the Assasin. However, those awsome defensive skills are part of the reason traps were toned down.

It's unfortunate he couldn't think of a way to cope with trappers HU, it would have been nice to see if he'd come up with any more decent ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:43 pm 

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the only strategic placing is for lining up the mobs. thats it. something that seems to be irrelevant for fire traps, which is why abominae couldnt grasp the idea. this shit was fairly common knowledge in vanilla, im so amazed i even had to say it....

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:53 pm 

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x3n0x1d3 wrote:
the only strategic placing is for lining up the mobs. thats it. something that seems to be irrelevant for fire traps, which is why abominae couldnt grasp the idea. this shit was fairly common knowledge in vanilla, im so amazed i even had to say it....


oh yea, because being able to place traps anywhere you want (as it was in vanilla) near the edge of the screen and letting them attack monsters while you stay out of screen is brilliant strategy?

to call a build "obsolete" because a certain aspect of it was changed to be more balanced and not abused is absurd. clearly its perfectly fine if players can get to hell with them in HC. Really there is no big deal about it. The build works perfectly fine. To me, it seems like you're bashing something because it doesnt work exactly the way you are used to.


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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:01 am 

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muleofal wrote:
oh yea, because being able to place traps anywhere you want (as it was in vanilla) near the edge of the screen and letting them attack monsters while you stay out of screen is brilliant strategy?

You obviously did not read what I said; I never said shit about doing that, and I rarely ever did it on my vanilla trapsin... good job assuming shit I never even mentioned. But because of this, you are correct that it doesn't need to be changed.

muleofal wrote:
To me, it seems like you're bashing something because it doesnt work exactly the way you are used to.

You are probably right; I tried to finish this thread earlier but you elitists just can't seem to stop with the arrogance and one-track minds... you have only repeated what other people have said, congratulations.

This WAS a suggestion thread, and it's already obvious that you guys have derailed it enough to make it not happen anyway. But you will continue to flame, so whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:10 am 

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x3n0x1d3 wrote:
You obviously did not read what I said; I never said shit about doing that, and I rarely ever did it on my vanilla trapsin... good job assuming shit I never even mentioned. But because of this, you are correct that it doesn't need to be changed. - and you didnt read what ive said, because nowhere did i mention you specifically doing this, but this was aimed at trappers in general.

muleofal wrote:
To me, it seems like you're bashing something because it doesnt work exactly the way you are used to.

You are probably right; I tried to finish this thread earlier but you elitists just can't seem to stop with the arrogance and one-track minds... you have only repeated what other people have said, congratulations.

This WAS a suggestion thread, and it's already obvious that you guys have derailed it enough to make it not happen anyway. But you will continue to flame, so whatever.


if you can come up with something that works other than:

1) trap anywhere you want

or

2) trap laying on feet

then i am interested in hearing it. i dont see anything besides these 2 options, however, and am definitely opposed to the first one.

and to be honest, i didnt see anything wrong with anyone's post until "this is obsolete in my mind" without any serious testing to see how viable the build can really be.

as for the change, i was not around for the change and don't know the reason, but would guess that its due to abuse reasons that have been mentioned. i see that as a pretty big reason to change it.


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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:19 am 

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:09 pm
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all i can think of is putting it at a max cast range, say 10 meters?

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Last edited by x3n0x1d3 on Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:25 am 

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x3n0x1d3 wrote:
all i can think of is putting it at a max cast range, say 10 meters? idk


dunno how this would be coded to work. im trying to think through all the skills, but really all i can think of are skills that are cast on you (novas, hurricane, etc), skills that you can cast anywhere (meteor, blizz), skills that come from you but can be aimed in a direction (orb, fireball, bone spear, etc). i cannot think of any skills that use a max-cast range mechanic, nor have i heard it in any other mod. its not a bad idea, just dont know if its possible to be coded.

an idea i just thought of was, if we were to change it back to anywhere, have a spell timer attached. i think this would make them horrible though.

as a side note: are you still attempting a trapper at all? if so, how far is it? if not, you seem to really enjoy them and i think you should give them a go. you may enjoy it.


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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:33 am 

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muleofal wrote:
as a side note: are you still attempting a trapper at all? if so, how far is it? if not, you seem to really enjoy them and i think you should give them a go. you may enjoy it.

Unfortunately no. As soon as I noticed that I was unable to cast them where i wanted while I was fighting mobs in a party, I said fuck this. After raging about it, I went into a private game and retested it to make sure what I saw was real, and I immediately deleted it. May consider doing a fire trapsin later, but I severely doubt it with the way traps are now.

I understand that there can be some off-screen abusing, but I'm sure there is a way to fix it to be better. I imagine it's fine for most people, but it's just not fun to me, and thus I hope it gets fixed for the better in some form.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:40 am 
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x3n0x1d3 wrote:
muleofal wrote:
oh yea, because being able to place traps anywhere you want (as it was in vanilla) near the edge of the screen and letting them attack monsters while you stay out of screen is brilliant strategy?

You obviously did not read what I said; I never said shit about doing that, and I rarely ever did it on my vanilla trapsin... good job assuming shit I never even mentioned. But because of this, you are correct that it doesn't need to be changed.

muleofal wrote:
To me, it seems like you're bashing something because it doesnt work exactly the way you are used to.

You are probably right; I tried to finish this thread earlier but you elitists just can't seem to stop with the arrogance and one-track minds... you have only repeated what other people have said, congratulations.

This WAS a suggestion thread, and it's already obvious that you guys have derailed it enough to make it not happen anyway. But you will continue to flame, so whatever.



First of all, none of us have flamed you. Second, you have assumed and put words in my mouth this entire topic, so I don't think you should flip out about the same treatment. Third, you call us close minded, except you rage against a change you never even gave a chance. How exactly does that work?

Lastly, if your suggestion is a crappy and ill-informed one, there is no point to consider it. Your suggestion was based off a 10 minute or so rage-fest because you're not playing Bnet anymore. You tested no build to see if trap laying at feet really caused an issue with a trapsin being viable. Therefore, your suggestion lacks value and credit.

If you don't want to play it, fine. Just don't go whining and saying a build is completely obsolete because of a trivial change. Especially when you've never played the build in this mod.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:49 am 

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gj abominae, u summed it up after it was already said. there is no reason for you to continue posting your thoughts unless you are going to try to improve the ideas for the thread; you have started to repeat yourself and thus seem to be just starting fights or gathering post counts for whatever reason. please stop kthx (geez wtf is with all the negative attitudes on these forums...?)

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:49 am 

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You should try a multizon, they are pretty op and easy to play.


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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:01 am 
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in HU's past - trappersins were abused too heavily with the ability to place their traps elsewhere and this was changed to keep the game challenging.

I don't foresee it being returned to b.net's way. Much like the teleport skill of sorceresses that was adjusted for this mod, trap placement is likely to stay.

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:08 pm 
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I've had both light and firetrappers to Guardian status, they are both great builds and the placing on the feet is just what they need. Now you actually have to run to where ever you want to place the traps, not just beeing a mindless char that is way to safe. As for lining monsters up etc, you can still do that unless you suck way to much (bos=enough speed for it).

Btw, my firetrapper soloed normal baal with bo so...


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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:36 pm 
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I have no problem with trappers myself. Infact it is a very good change. It should have to be placed at your feet s you are laying a trap. Not throwing something. You have ranged skills too for both the fire and light tree. Infact Utters fire trapper used the fire blast against norm baal and solo'd him. The basic strateyg is run 5 yards from a mob, drop 5 traps, take a step back. Enemyr run into range and get wtf pwned before thetraps run out. I played with a light trapsin this season too and we duo'd hf dragon at level 40 with no lifebuffs AND charged bolt sentry. The counters were heavy but placing them next to him and running back still only took a couple of secs. Both builds are viable and have good skills to use against pretty much any boss

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:00 am 
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Here is my two cents. Take it as you will.

I am an avid trapsin player in vanilla. I currently have a level 96 one on east ladder. Imo the best way to route there is to completely forgo a shadow. Max the lightning tree and fireblast. You can hit 12k lightning sentry and about 8k fireblast without getting the hard to find goldy claws. (I know these are likely paltry number here, but with infinity it outright rapes things). Outright offense is the way to go.

You really can't go this route as effectively on HU as I see it (pure speculation because I was kinda turned off by this change as well), so you are limited to one element and a tank. You do get -res bonuses on traps unlike bnet though, which is really nice.

The problem as I see it on HU (which has been pointed out) is that it can be heavily abused on bosses by simply walking away after laying traps near the edge of the screen. There is an instance in vanilla where traps will disappear. That is if you teleport two+screens away. I think the distance is quite a bit further if you walk. I wonder if this could be changed, but it still wouldn't help the abuse all that much.

You don't have this same issue in vanilla because things are simply much easier to kill, especially bosses.

So, while I am not a fan, I do understand the change. I accept it for what it is, but I doubt that I will bother playing one. It is just too different of a playstyle for my liking (I am a believer in dual element casters. I totally loathe single tree variants...but that is discussion to be had another day).

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 Post subject: Re: trap placement, wth?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:43 am 
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NO.

Trapsins are really good, the only thing that they need is an equivalent of firelizard for lighting traps, less lag for shockweb, less spikes per lvl for shockweb and a little buff in dmg, and maybe little bit more radius for the firebomb (since the dmg area from shockweb is huge in comparison).

and even if they dont get any change, still rapes nicely.


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