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 Post subject: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:21 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:22 am
Posts: 166
Location: Budapest, Hungary
How much pierce/mastery do they get from claws? From both? Only main? Each on hit with dclaw?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:03 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
From both. If you are ever in doubt, use the display in the character screen. Crushing blow for example is only applied to the hand that is swung (off hand CB only applies to offhand hits). This shows in the char screen, if you equip a CB item in the offhand, it won't display on the stat screen. Pierce from offhand weapons does display, so the game takes the pierce into account from both hands, no matter what skill you use.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:02 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:22 am
Posts: 166
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Well, the cb truly doesn't show up on char screen, but the pierce does, no matter what. For example if you use dtail, only main hand will count, but screen still shows your full pierce. I found this old thread about phoenix written by PureRage, where he writes only main hand pierce will be applied. viewtopic.php?f=10&t=719
It's old so there can be changes. Can anyone confirm?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:00 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
Yep that's incorrect, at least as far the missiles and claw based attacks go. Converted damage from kicks (Dragon flight and Dragon tail) are not effected by pierce at all, as they are calculated from the boot rather than the weapon and also calculated based on the physical damage done, before dealing the elemental damage. This stops other mods like crushing blow on the offhand from stacking with the main hand for kicks. It's also there to prevent a crushing blow kick doing: "use CB damage then multiply it by 3000% and deal as additional fire splash damage" to pretty much 1 shot any boss with a single crushing blow based dragon tail/flight.

So I wasn't exactly thorough with my reply. To put it better:

1: Any melee attack that uses claws is calculated with the pierce from both hands.

2: Any melee attack that releases a missile whos damage is independent of physical damage done to the target (Any charge up skill that releases a missile) is calculated with the pierce from both hands.

3: Any melee attack that calculates a base damage based on physical damage dealt, then takes that damage and uses it to calculate a secondary elemental damage type is not effected by passive pierce at all.


#3 Surprised me as I had always been under the impression that main hand pierce did work with kicks that use physical > elemental conversion, but after through testing via phys immune fallens, 100% fire pierce weapons and a poor zombie to initiate the kicks on, I can confirm, that is the case. After testing I did a little digging and found more detailed explanation of the routine and the possibilities of the CB issue I described above being the reason. Only directly lowering the targets resistance to the element (LR/Convic) works for those types of attacks.

I took screenshots of the tests, before/after if there are still doubts. I didn't sort them and post them atm because there are like 60-70 I need to go through to weed out the ones when I didn't highlight the mob correctly after a kick/attack to show the hp, or used the wrong skill, or missed the attack and hit print screen anyway :x .

Hope that helps!


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:38 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:22 am
Posts: 166
Location: Budapest, Hungary
You surprised me with #3 as well. If those fallens weren't fire immun they should have died or got damage. I'm gonna test it myself. Thanks for the info.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:04 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
They take damage, just exactly the same damage with 100% pierce as they did with 0 pierce. Didn't test with pierce from non weapon sources but it looks like pierce is not counted at all for dtail/flight.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:51 am 

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:58 pm
Posts: 217
Here is how I thought Dtail worked.

Does physical damage based on boot. If physical damage is dealt, increase said damage by X percent from the skill and turn it into fire damage.

Dtail will never do damage to a physical immune but will do damage to a fire immune (even if that damage is so low as to be unnoticeable)

Since Dtail does both physical and fire damage, it is reduced by both physical and fire resists (which is why it absolutely blows against bosses). I thought pierce would reduce the resist after the physical has been dealt as an attempt to not have the fire damage be reduced nearly as much.

IE, mob with 50% physical and fire resist, you'd do about 25% of your damage.
Unless I've been wrong for the past 3 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
You have it right but the part that has no effect is passive pierce on the fire component.

Examples:
900% DTail
1000 base kick damage
vs a mob with 0 phys res and 0 fire res, 1000 physical damage is dealt.
that 1000 base damage dealt is then increased by 900%, (900% is 10x damage) and added as a fire splash effect, so 10,000 fire fire damage is dealt.
The target takes 11,000 damage


900% DTail
1000 base kick damage
vs a mob with 50 phys res and 0 fire res, 500 physical damage is dealt.
that 500 base damage dealt is then increased by 900%, (900% is 10x damage) and added as a fire splash effect, so 5,000 fire fire damage is dealt.
The target takes 6,000 damage


900% DTail
1000 base kick damage
vs a mob with 50 phys res and 50 fire res, 500 physical damage is dealt.
that 500 base damage dealt is then increased by 900%, (900% is 10x damage) and added as a fire splash effect, so 2,500 fire fire damage is dealt. (mob has 50% fire resist)
The target takes 3,000 damage



Here's where things go bad for DTail
We introduce 150% fire pierce, to the previous example.
Expected Result:
900% DTail
1000 base kick damage
vs a mob with 50 phys res and -100 (-150% pierce should drop the target to -100%) fire res, 500 physical damage is dealt.
that 500 base damage dealt is then increased by 900%, (900% is 10x damage) and added as a fire splash effect, so 10,000 fire fire damage is dealt. (mob has -100% fire resist)
The target takes 10,500 damage

The above is incorrect through as pierce is not functioning with DTail, so no matter how much passive pierce you use, it will have no effect. The best you can hope for is Amp curse, and conviction aura. -% enemy fire res on gear is not functioning with those kicks.

In the last example above, the target takes 3,000 damage, just as if no pierce was present on the sin at the time.

To sum up, a Dtail sin should avoid rubies in weapons and use ko/fal rules instead to increase the base damage of the kick. The best way to improve the damage is via amp curse and conviction aura in tandem. This works because convic/holy fire directly lowers the targets fire res, unlike passive pierce. A Kicker with 200% passive fire pierce will deal the same damage as a sin with no fire pierce using DTail.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:35 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 928
This thread could use a tl;dr


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:14 am 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
If someone doesn't want too read then it's not important to them.

I summed it up already, 2 or 3 times. You only have to read the last 4 lines and 1 word from my post above.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 928
Multiple people have summed up opposing facts.

Holy fuck when did the 9gag morons invade HU forums?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:26 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
Angel wrote:
Multiple people have summed up opposing facts.


What? The only thing people have talked about is how the starting damage is calculated, nothing to do with the post pierce problem. I refer you again, to my previous meme.

Angel wrote:
Holy fuck when did the 9gag morons invade HU forums?


Just trying to bring some lightheartedness to an otherwise hostile environment. It's not my problem if you are too serious. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 928
Insulting someone with a meme and insulting someone with a sentence are about the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am
Posts: 485
Location: Richmond Va
Artair wrote:
I took screenshots of the tests, before/after if there are still doubts.


I'd like to see a few s/s of monsters with 0 phys res and 99 fire res with a passive 100% pierce.

This would be a good explanation of why dtail still sucks vs bosses.

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I was never more at home than I was in battle. - Solomon Kane


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
FuryCury wrote:
Artair wrote:
I took screenshots of the tests, before/after if there are still doubts.


I'd like to see a few s/s of monsters with 0 phys res and 99 fire res with a passive 100% pierce.

This would be a good explanation of why dtail still sucks vs bosses.


Thanks for that idea! it looks like the skill is even more screwed up than first thought. ><

Pierce does work, and from both hands, but only under certain circumstances that I hadn't thought to test as I only wanted to check the fire component. It's looking like physical "off targets" are unaffected by pierce, but I need more control over the variables to say for sure and I'm not sure how best to do it. I've been trying various stuff but changing 1 thing is producing vastly diff results. Really need to find some info on the actual code to track down exactly what is going on.

Main target is effected by pierce from both hands!, and obviously physical immunity on the main target negates the fire completely. Need to do more digging, Seems like the skill is really buggy. Ran a few more tests just now and found other issues too wtf.

Main target, 0 phys res 99 fire res:
Image

Image




Off target, 100% phys res, 0 fire res
Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 928
Does vengeance work the same way?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about venom/phoenix
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:14 pm
Posts: 33
I can't say, haven't tested anything about that skill, but I doubt it as the missiles released are all soft coded so pierce should work just fine. I can say that the conversion method for the main target on vengeance uses a separate function and does the conversion before the physical hit is actually done so it's quite the same as these kicks and less open to bugs.

Sin finishing moves are extremely hard coded, so much so it's impossible to actually make any new finishing moves. I suspect it's something to do with using another item for the damage rating of the skill, but I can't be sure without someone with coding knowledge to dig out the routines. I believe smite also suffers some (less problematic) bugs with synergy display in the character screen, that I suspect is due to the same thing.

Ran a few more tests. This time I got pierce to work on off targets, but upon saving/exit and trying again, it's not being applied this time. All i can say for sure is when it is occurring, it works from both hands. Going to do some digging on the keep and see if I can find anything about finishers.


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