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 Post subject: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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Hi I'm wondering what exactly to spec. Is this a viable option through Hell?

Does BoS + Fade + Venom all stack?

Should I bother getting Death Sentry for the aoe and elemental? It costs 6 points just to get to it so I'm wondering if it's worth it.

Is it better to go dragon claw or tail? My biggest concern is being able to kill bosses.

Do the shadow pets just get raped in 1 hit by bosses?

Thanks for any info about this. Also if anyone has a spare Jade Talon, I'd really appreciate it. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:54 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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Really nobody has any input about this? I decided to go Traps...lol


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:01 pm 
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venom is cool, but is hard to keep it applied. Really the only way to make full use of the venom is to use WW and have a really high CTH, but if you're going for pierce and mastery then you likely will not be able to tank bosses while trying to apply the venom. I like venom for trash clearing, OR as a prebuff from items.

You can use BoS, fade, and venom all at once.. not sure what you're asking

Put 1 pt to death sentry if you want to clear trash really effectively

I have no input on dtail, never made one. I made a dclaw basically as a crushing blow + curse immune tank. With the claw block it is an insanely good tank, and if you have good gear she can dps too. The dclaw sin in my ladder reset party pretty much killed every boss by herself

I have only ever 1 pointed the shadow summons and they die much faster than the cooldown. I have heard if you max them they can last til cooldown, making them a very effective tank vs bosses (probably not the prime evils, though), but have never tried myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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Ok thanks for that. Do you have any info about traps? :P


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:23 pm 
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yea, traps are OP. I don't enjoy playing them though, so I really only made trappers for killing specific bosses, but they do fine untwinked as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:51 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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Why do you say it is hard to keep up Venom, by the way? It says it has a 2 minute duration at level 1. Isn't it just free damage that's at least worth 1 point? Also 7 skill points to get 1 into Death Sentry seems really steep, and the radius is not good if you don't have a ton of +skills, so is that really worth getting as a tank sin?


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:04 am 
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If you're going to use a runeword for your claw you can always go for a + death sentry one.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
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Ensley03 wrote:
Why do you say it is hard to keep up Venom, by the way? It says it has a 2 minute duration at level 1. Isn't it just free damage that's at least worth 1 point? Also 7 skill points to get 1 into Death Sentry seems really steep, and the radius is not good if you don't have a ton of +skills, so is that really worth getting as a tank sin?

Venom is not hard to keep up, but to keep applied. The skill duration is 2 mins (give or take depending on slvl) but the psn duration is very short .3 or .5 sec I forget now, meaning unless ur hitting constantly it wears off really fast. Vs and act boss, it's barely a blip on the screen.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:56 pm 
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yea sorry kwikster knew what I meant :P was talkin about the .5 duration so you have to hit fast with a high cth% to keep it applied

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:40 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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Yeah I've noticed that bosses have like 95% PLR - I have a poison necro and his 3 second nova lasts about 5 frames, lol.

Would you still say it's worth 1 point just for the added damage on a tiger+claw cb sin?

Also my cth has never dropped below 95% but my highest character is 68. Is there a point where you start to actually need attack rating in this game? lol

One more thing, does the aoe attack from dragon tail apply venom and other effects, or is it just an elemental attack like fireball?


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:02 am 
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Yea you need poison pierce to get the duration of your poison to actually be decent.

You can get a pretty big prebuff from gear so I don't think it's worth the hard point.

Yea, it will be tough in hell, especially vs bosses. I almost always roll ames in my weapons on melee chars for the massive ias and cth, and always have some steel grand charms

donno bout that last question

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:54 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
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AFAIK, the fireball is treated like the spell and doesn't get venom applied. Only physical hits count.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:26 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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Ok thanks guys. Any ideas on what to do for weapons? I have 2 Night Hands for level 40 but it looks like there's nothing else to use until I get a great white claw and high runes.

Does anyone have a spare Jade Talon? That looks like a decent unique to grind with until I can make a runeword...or maybe some nice ED jewels I can put in the Night Hands, lol. I have a feeling I might hit a brick wall in act 5 with this gear. I'm also usually solo so that doesn't help my cause :D


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:11 am 
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There's already been a decent bit of melee sin discussion on these forums, so instead of rewriting giant blocks of texts, I'm just going to link you to them.

Meleesin discussion:
http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4860&hilit=+dragon+claw
http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5636
http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4213&p=35297&hilit=dtail#p35297
http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4335&hilit=+dragon+claw

The first two threads are more general discussions on the topic, but should have some useful information on gearing and how you might want to distribute your skills. The last two focus more on Dragon Tail and its mechanics.


Ensley03 wrote:
Would you still say it's worth 1 point just for the added damage on a tiger+claw cb sin?


No. Venom will never do significant damage without reasonable investment in both the skill and the gear to support it.
Also, Tiger Strike + Dragon Claw is suboptimal. The time spent charging up and then preforming a Dragon Claw does far less damage than just using Dragon Claw repeatedly. It also applies CB at a slower rate, especially if the Attack Rating bonus given by TS is superfluous.
This is explained in in-depth in this topic:
http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3621&hilit=+dragon+claw

Ensley03 wrote:
Also my cth has never dropped below 95% but my highest character is 68. Is there a point where you start to actually need attack rating in this game? lol


Yes. 20k AR will not be giving you 95% cth in late Hell and definitely not on a big boss. 30k is pretty much what I like to see on my Dclaw sins end-game, if not a bit higher.

Ensley03 wrote:
Ok thanks guys. Any ideas on what to do for weapons? I have 2 Night Hands for level 40 but it looks like there's nothing else to use until I get a great white claw and high runes.


I used rares and crafts for most of the game. Generally though, just seek the highest base type for your level and try to get as much ED% on the claw as possible. A lot of the time, this ends up being rares and crafts thanks to always having 3 sockets and coming in every base type.
If you have them on hand, most of the unique claws are pretty good for the lower end of the level requirement. Firelizards at 85 is the first unique that really shines above rares/crafts, with one ethereal Shadow Killers and one "Darkness" RW being pretty much the end-game dream.

One thing to note about claws is that your main-claw's IAS is the only one factored in calculating Dragon Claw's speed. This means all those rares/crafts that spawned with high ED but no IAS work perfect as off-claws.
However, the base speed of both claws is factored in, so wielding two claws with good base speeds still results in a faster swing.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Also, Death Sentry is worth the 7 points. If not the 26 points. Taking a few seconds to cast 15-25 corpse explosions is something you should consider doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:37 am 

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm
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lol you're saying to literally just spam dragon claw with no charges? It seems to have a much slower attack speed than any other attack. I'm not sure how that could work at all since it's slower and you're not getting the charge up bonuses.

Edit: Oh, does dragon claw actually swing BOTH claws at once? If so, that may be good, but it still seems very slow, and tiger claw gives such massive bonuses, I don't know how that could possibly be better. I read that thread and you made it sound as if dragon claw is faster? She goes hi-ya a hell of a lot slower than tiger strike just goes fapfapfap.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee Sin build?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:06 pm 
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That's because Dragon Claw is faster than Tiger Strike. Dragon Claw caps at 5 frames per attack. This includes both claw swings in that time period. If your claws do equal damage (hardly ever the case), you can pretty much say you swing one claw at 2.5 frames per attack.

Tiger Strike caps its one claw strike at 7 frames per attack.
For reference, 25 frames make up one second.

The reason your Tiger Strike is swinging faster is because it reaches its 7 FPA cap much easier than Dragon Claw reaches its 5 FPA cap. If you had more IAS and faster claws, you'd have Dragon Claw swinging faster than Tiger Strike does.

If that's not enough, Tiger Strike only applies to the first claw strike of Dragon Claw, not the second. So you are wasting 21 frames to charge up Tiger Strike for it to only effect one half of your Dragon Claw damage.
One Dragon Claw does roughly three times the damage of an equal Tiger Strike. In the time you Tiger Strike three times, you can Dragon Claw four times.
Charging up and striking simply does tons less damage than using Dragon Claw five times in a row. My figures in that topic show using Dragon Claw alone does greater than 50% more damage than using three Tiger Strikes + one Dragon Claw. That was when I thought Tiger Strike applied to both Dragon Claw swings, which it doesn't. So, that 50% figure should be even higher.

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