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 Post subject: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:15 pm 

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The point of this thread is to point out builds with synergies or gear choices that simply don't make much sense. A simple example I can come up with is the TK/CB sorc. Perhaps we can get soulmancer to look it over after enough discussion has been made and see if changing the synergies(at the very least) is possible.

First of all, you're forced into maxing ES, which is extremely problematic in itself since the skill has many uses aside from being a 95% skill. You shouldn't be forced into taking off gear to lower the percent just to hit an acceptable number if you deem yourself interested in running a lower % skill. In fact, 95% ES is one of the hardest builds to pull off because the skewed mana/life ratio is ridiculous(and commits you to essentially <50 vit. It's not that this is a problem in itself, it's a problem because it's the only way to go about it due to maxing ES.

Another problem with the build is the inability to max your trash clearing skill in terms of damage. It has too many synergies(when LM is added in) to effectively max and therefor just makes no sense. If you can't get enough skill points to max a skill and it's synergies, what's the point in having it in the game? Most builds have a specific skill tree, teeth necro for example covers itself with all three abilities. TK sorc, to completely max, is more points than you're even able to get.

To conclude this, the skill ES is pretty problematic in my opinion since literally all sorc builds are at least 80 points with mastery. You have to max TK(which does nothing for you) then put points into ES(to get the % where you want it to). The only way ES is effective is to max TK, and the only way you'll be able to do that is at extremely high levels. ES is essentially requiring of points in energy, which is pretty useless with the exception of running ES. The best way to fix this is to remove the TK synergy to ES and make ES a stand-alone skill. This would make it viable on all sorc builds from an early level.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:28 am 
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i thought tk/cb sorcs use tk for bosses/champs/uniques and cb for trash. i dont see why you need to cast energy shield if you dont want to go that route, even though you maxed it. and im pretty sure cb does pretty well considering it casts 20+ bolts which does the most damage out of the starting attack skills for each tree, which has the same amount of synergies as the rest also unable to max out if also maxing the mastery.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:34 pm 

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Does the best damage because it's a multishot that can hit multiple times. All the charges get eaten by mobs though, where as say teeth or multishot would hit everything you aimed it at. Regardless, having a skill that's impossible to max synergy wise along with mastery is just retarded.

I never said you ahd to cast ES, I said it's stupid that it's forced into a 95% ES build(which is like tiny life and huge mana) all because ES is a synergy to a damaging skill.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:45 pm 
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you are nt forced into a 95% es build, you don't have to use ES jesus, how hard is that to understand????

ISO a screenshot of this failes ES sorc of yours. I've never heard of anyone failing to make one tbh, you must be super special

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 5:51 pm 

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You people must seriously be fucking retarded. You're forced into 95% ES if you choose to use ES, you cannot for example run a 60% or lower ES without having to tediously take off gear like a retard.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:44 pm 
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you aint forced into anything, it's not a passive, you need to cast it. Just don't cast it if you don't have the mana for it. It's not hard.

Ok you want to remove the synergy? thats cool, then the folks who decide to build a pure energy tk sorc with ES have to spend an extra 20 points. Maybe you didn't notice but the defensive sorc skills all synergise an offensive skill.

Nobody is saying you have to max ES first. you can leave it 1 pointed and max the other 3 skills first. By that time you will have a decent amount of mana. If it starts being too much for your mana pool then it is time to swap out some charms, invest in inergy or simply stop using it against heavy elemental bosses. If you invested in energy then you will need the extra protection, but your mana pool wil be bigger. You want 12k mana es sorcs with a 50% shield losing no mana and no health due to pdr/mdr/res after es and sorbs after es. Yeh thats a great idea...

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:46 pm 

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Are you seriously that dense? YOURE FORCED, IF YOU WANT TO USE ES, TO RUN A HIGH % ES. YOU CAN CHOOSE TO RUN A VITA BUILD, BUT IF YOU CHOOSE TO RUN ES ITS GOING TO BE HIGH BECAUSE ITS MAXED.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 6:50 pm 
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ES isn't supposed to be strong when you go pure vita. Are you seriously that dense? It's what makes the build unique. (if you do it right, but apparently you didn't lmao)

Ps, mad much? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 7:17 pm 

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It's like talking to a retard.

ES is strong as fuck at 75% if you balance it right. It's a balancing act; it's only weak when TK is low.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 8:52 pm 
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dude seriously? you just said it should be easy to get it to 75% on a tk sorc. then say its strong as fuck at 75%?

If its only weak when TK is low, what are you complaining about? The TK-ES synergy isn't done text side iirc its done in the dll's.

Stop wasting everyones time going on about changing a build that works fine. You failed at building it, we get it. Go write about it in your diary and stop wasting my time.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:05 am 

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Pure, you missin da point brah and hes getting frustrated that he cant get you to understand his wurdz. Go re read the posts and think about it.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:22 am 
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I read them multiple times and all I see is "Make it easier plz, my es sorc don't have enough mana".

his fault, not mine...

While removing the es synergy, maybe we should remove the frozen armor synergy to fnova, maybe remove the warmth synergy to enchant? No? What about all the melee damage synergys in the game? Maybe the fclaw synergy from firestorm? I know, the synergy to plague jav from pois jav? Ok, what about the synergy to druid dires/grizzlys AR/DEF from spirit wolves?
Still no? Ok, the shockweb synergy to light traps?
Maybe the holy bolt synergy to hammers/foh?

A change like this would mean every single sorc would 1 point it and mean an end to the pure energy ES sorc. No ty, I like having 1 build that isn't all about pure vita... Not everyone has 0 imagination. His sorc fails, thats fine. He built it wrong. I've played a lot of pure energy ES sorcs and a lot of pure vit ES sorcs, pure vita is nothing like as strong as pure energy but it's nice to have an early warning system.

sorc class is one of the few classes that are fine on all 3 tree's. focus on something important instead of a class that needs nothing.

I don't think you even understand just how hardcoded Energy Shield is, if you did you wouldn't be going on about trying to change it. By all means have a bash at changing it like you suggested, I hope you enjoy massive headaches...

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:50 am 

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↑What he said


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 7:36 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Huge block of text.


I understand what you are saying, but how can you sit here and say he has no imagination while stubbornly insisting that ES has to be pigeon holed into a single build? He's asking for a rework that will not only make ES more usable in other builds AND NOT just stuck where it is, but also allow more variety in how the damn thing is used.

This, "yousobad you cant even make an es sorc lululul" you keep spouting needs to stop. It's childish taunting and from what I have seen of your posting history I honestly expected more. He hasn't made an ES sorc, he hasn't failed at an ES sorc. It's an observation based on what a couple people who have ES sorcs noticed, and what was blatantly obvious at the end of planning the character. SURE the sorcs DO FINE, but what's wrong with adding a little variety to the mix? That is what you like, right?


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:53 am 
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what? who says only tk sorcs can use it? I use it on 90% of my sorc builds... I know folks who don't use it at all but thats up to them.

I've been using ES since before I can remember, the skill is fine IMO, change for the sake of change is stupid

By all means, try changing it like I said, I'm not going through that headache again. I already told you it's problematic to edit at best.

Can you blame me for thinking he completely failed at building an ES sorc when I know for a fact that it works both with and without pure energy? My old static sorcs ES was over 90% and she was pure vita. Funny thing, but she didn't die and made it to 100 + survived all the end of ladder duels undefeated. How strong do you want the skill exactly? I guess none of you seen furycurys screenshots of his sorc soloing + tanking hell anya dragon while in mega stacked blizz while still having full mana. Yeh it sure needs buffed when its taking 70% more damage than a player would and still isn't deminishing mana.

If he hasn't actually build one, wtf is he saying it's useless for.
The reason I'm calling him out on it is because what he says is the complete opposite of the experience i've had with ES for the last ~10 years. Now it turns out he hasn't even build a fucking ES sorc. WTF.

Ps: I just spoke to a guy who said plague jav is complete garbage... BUFF!!!

Pps: Hows that for a wall of text?

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 9:12 am 

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It's change for the sake of adding more use for the skill than just a pure energy tanker. We have both played ES sorcs. We have had them in previous patches. All of what you are saying is based on you liking it the way it is, not that it COULD change.

There is no point in arguing with you, the most valid argument you have is, "Hard to code." While that may be a GOOD reason not to do it why not let us talk about it? Why come into the thread and act condescending and try to belittle others because their opinion differs? Just for the sake of argument I'll now quote all your belittling and provoking comments.
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Ps: I just spoke to a guy who said plague jav is complete garbage... BUFF!!!


Was going to pick out sentences in your posts...but this was the first post you made and it was ENTIRELY unproductive and 99% belittling.
PureRage-DoD wrote:
you are nt forced into a 95% es build, you don't have to use ES jesus, how hard is that to understand????

ISO a screenshot of this failes ES sorc of yours. I've never heard of anyone failing to make one tbh, you must be super special


Yet another 99% unproductive post. I edited out the 1% part at the beginning that WAS productive in some way.
PureRage-DoD wrote:
...Are you seriously that dense? It's what makes the build unique. (if you do it right, but apparently you didn't lmao)

Ps, mad much? :lol:


Bolded the part of your post that to us in the mental health field signifies a superiority complex, or at the very least delusions of grandeur.
PureRage-DoD wrote:
Stop wasting everyones time going on about changing a build that works fine. You failed at building it, we get it. Go write about it in your diary and stop wasting my time.


See what I mean?


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 9:51 am 
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Quote:
All of what you are saying is based on you liking it the way it is, not that it COULD change.


dont have time to read fully, i just skimmed, i`ll give it a better read later, though I don't see anything actually productive, just a personal attack, gj. Talk about it all you like, i'm free to talk about it too and my experience varys GREATLY from what angel has heard from others withoug actually having any experience with the skill...

Maybe if he bothered to try it, his point would hold some ground. He hasn't though, so why post it is problematic when it's absolutely fine as it is?

Go ahead and discuss it, I'll stop arguing now, I have better things to do than bang my head against a brick wall.

Read into it however you want. Angel is being what we call in the construction business, a cock. should we really be listening to some idiot who is telling folks not to play? I don't think so. I certainly don't think this is helping anybody, so fuck him and his opinion IMO.

BTW, don't bother quoting any of the insults from angel, just post mine as i'm the only one slinging mud here. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 11:01 am 

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I think the point was try to talk without attacking the other person. What I did was inform you. I quoted YOU(Bold, Italic, Underlined) because, as anyone in this forum can see, you started the personal attacks with your first post and still haven't ended them. If your goal was to turn this topic into a flame war, congratulations sir (I call you this in the hopes that by feeding into your superiority you might actually listen), mission accomplished. You turned a legitimate idea into a completely unproductive, off topic, insult rant. But I digress, I have now insulted you as well and am contributing to the useless posting.

If you want to talk about productivity of posts why have you posted nothing of significance in this entire thread, yet have 5+ posts in it?


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Don't even talk to me about productivity... I'm one of the only ones here willing to put time into something.
this whole thread is a fail.

Quote:
You turned a legitimate idea into a completely unproductive, off topic, insult rant.


I completely disagree with his "Idea" so why shouldn't I say so? Also, who exactly are you to tell me how i should and shouldn't act? I'll type what I want, if you don't like it, theres an ignore function. Some of his ideas have been great, I'm not saying everything he says is a bad idea. I'm saying that from my experience with ES, it needs no changes. I'll be sure to run it past you next time I have a reply to a post. Would that be ok Doc? I don't want you stopping my meds, or god forbid start asking me how i'm feeling...

Quote:
congratulations sir (I call you this in the hopes that by feeding into your superiority you might actually listen)


You don't listen to text, you read it. :D
seriously though, don't get me started on folks in your "line of business" who think they know everything about everybody. They sure didn't pick up on my nephiew's friends depression and he ended up jumping in front of a train and killing himself a few months ago. You certainly fail at diagnosing over the internet so I would probs stick to doing it face to face for now.

Ps, you have 4 posts in this thread and none of those are productive either. What exactly have you contributed to this topic? Fact is, there is nothing productive in this whole thread as its a complete waste of time. I'm wasting my time, you are wasting your time and both of us together are wasting everybodys time by continuing this retarded discussion.

good day "Sir" (see what I did there? how does that make you feel?)

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 2:49 pm 

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You assume that, in posting about something I'd like changed, I've failed in making one? It's fucking pathetic, forcing you to run a high % ES when it's completely capable of rolling lower numbers effectively - if not better than a 95% build - is just completely retarded.

How am I asking to make it easier? If I wanted to run an 80% ES build, the only way to do that is to unequip charms and items to lower the cast level down low enough for me to get the level I want. This is backwards, you shouldn't have to unequip gear to "prebuff" a lower level of the skill you want.

Switch the synergy, I didn't say it had to be completely removed, switch TK's synergy to something else that goes along with CB. CB is retardedly designed as you simply cannot grab every synergy and the mastery. This is dumb, it's not designed right, the design on it is stupid because it's impossible to complete. It's like having a boss in the game that's unkillable just for shits and giggles to fuck with people.

TK as a synergy to ES is detrimental because of how many points it requires. It requires at the very least 21 points, since ES is utterly useless without maxed TK. TK is completely worthless maxed unless you have the synergies maxed, so it makes little sense to max it. You could AT THE VERY LEAST provide a skill that makes actual sense in synergizing with it - like warmth?

In before "ur make sucky es lololol" "im cooler than u lolol" "all i hear is make game ezier plz lolol"


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 2:55 pm 

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think the reason for having that many cb synergies is that then you can choose between 2 different cb builds, one with tk/es and one with lightning/cl.
I think its good.
Hopefully this also means that its balanced around having only 2 synergies and lightning mastery maxed.
Would be fun to see someone max cb, tk, es, lightning mastery, lightning and dumb the rest of the points in cl. I wonder how much damage cb would do then :P

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:00 pm 

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Where as you could simply change the synergies of TK to be something that makes more sense and would allow CB to be balanced for TK and lightning/CL builds.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:18 pm 
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Quote:
You could AT THE VERY LEAST provide a skill that makes actual sense in synergizing with it - like warmth?


Didn't I just tell you the synergy from tk to ES is hardcoded???

Quote:
CB is retardedly designed as you simply cannot grab every synergy and the mastery. This is dumb, it's not designed right, the design on it is stupid because it's impossible to complete.

Tell it to whoever designed it like that, while you are at it, tell them armageddon and firestorm are gimped because of it too (thats why nobody makes them right?) same with hurricane.

Pointless reading the rest as it's all theory craft by someone who hasn't even used the build themselves...

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:33 pm 

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Other than the fact you can max hurricane and the synergies.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Other than the fact you can max hurricane and the synergies.


oh rly?

Image
Image
Image

Edit: Oh yeh.
Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:26 pm 

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Pretty much, hurricane and armageddon was only brought into the limelight by retardedly imba zod runewords that pumped their values far beyond what they should of normally been. 1 hitting everything that isn't cold immune is dumb.

Ice bolt and fire bolt aren't used to clear trash in builds, CB is used by two builds.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:33 pm 
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CB is retardedly designed as you simply cannot grab every synergy and the mastery. This is dumb, it's not designed right, the design on it is stupid because it's impossible to complete.


Sure, just dodge the point "imba zod rw's bla bla bla" everyone knows that but i't don't change the fact that there are multiple skills that can't be maxed.

Also, firebolt is awesome for dealing damage between meteor cooldowns on a boss. 200fcr + 60k+ firebolt is pretty health dps. Icebolt's damage gets pretty nice for a single target skill if too.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:36 pm 

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Because fireball isn't better for that?

Icebolt is what you cast until you get glacial/icebolt/bliz/orb.

Haven't seen any pure hurricane builds til the runeword came out, and fire druids were few and far between before the runeword.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:45 pm 
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FUI without imba armageddon rw firedruids perform good. Around 45% less damage than with it. Problem isn't with killing speed now, you can stand there and cast firestorm to do the right damage as you lose 3-4 juvs per baal boss anyway. Real problem with firedruids was whole build was balanced toward 100 point. I easily went 20 oak, 1 into summon, rest into fire and was doing just fine till I get imba armg wpn aka ultimate wpn!!(you don't have one as other chars have - just balance it now and stop saying it's somehow gamebreaking).

I have a friend, his brother did 100 fire with armageddon rw, he's running bear/lycan and has the same equip as me but higher dmg, he dies a lot because he has 5.6k while I have 12k.

Back to topic - just because skill has 3 synergies doesn't mean you should max all of them. Let me quote from changes.txt:
Quote:
-Conviction added as a synergy to Holy aura and sanctuary skills for an alternative path build... it is still intended to be a 60 point build and
the synergy bonus remains the same
Soulmancer himself wrote this.


Last edited by Steel on Sat May 07, 2011 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Quote:
Because fireball isn't better for that?

no considering firebolt can deal twice the damage to a single target compared with fireball
same with icebolt (if you max its synergys as much as poss

My old meteor sorc had 70k bolt and only 30kish fireball. + fireball hurts the mana pool more than bolt.

Pure hurricane druids, you mean a windy? because they have always been popular, it's just changed to hurricane now instead of nado.

Fire was never popular because it had bad synergys and lots of annoying cooldowns. There was still plenty of firestorm druids around. Not as many as windys but they have always put down decent dps.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:53 pm 

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Pure hurricane, meaning you don't even cast nado. Why bother throwing out 30k nadoes when you can walk into people with 320k hurricanes.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 4:57 pm 
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were not talking about that though...

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 5:16 pm 
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Firebolt & Ice Bolt deal way more damage than their AoE counterparts.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 5:37 pm 

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Icebolt does not outdamage orb/bliz, firebolt does not outdamage meteor. Probably fireball, but the gain is insignificant since meteor and FB wreck everything in a second anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 5:54 pm 
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and lets not forget you cant cast them during the meteor cooldown, everyone uses orb on bosses coz counters are pretty and you also cant cast ice bolt during blizz cooldown.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 6:27 pm 

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firebolt doesn't out damage fireball
lvl 50 firebolt 29-34k
lvl 50 fireball30-34k
can post ss if need be

maybe if u go enchant/hydra but for a pure fball meteor sorc it isnt the case


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 6:51 pm 
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blinky99 wrote:
firebolt doesn't out damage fireball
lvl 50 firebolt 29-34k
lvl 50 fireball30-34k
can post ss if need be

maybe if u go enchant/hydra but for a pure fball meteor sorc it isnt the case


It depends on your build.

20 Fball, 20 Meteor, 20 Fire Mastery, and 20 Bolt equates to an 80 point build with 33 skill points left over. If you subtract 4 points for Tele, TK, FA, and Warmth, you still have 29 skill points left over. Meaning at 95 with most skills quests you can have max Enchant no problem.

Firebolt with 1 point enchant at level 55: 33k
Fireball at level 55: 32k
Firebolt with maxed Enchant (no points in Hydra): 46.8k
All numbers are with level 55 Fire Mastery.

The damage gap obviously gets higher the higher skill levels you go and the more passive fire mastery you have on gear.

Ice Bolt with 1 point Ice Blast at level 55: 32k
Glacial Spike at level 55: 23k
Ice Bolt with 20 point Ice Blast at level 55: 45k
All numbers are with level 55 Cold Mastery

Again, Blizz sorc is an 80pt build, and has room to max Ice Blast if it wishes. Even without maxing Ice Blast, the damage difference between bolt and spike is significant.


So to repeat my former statement, Ice Bolt and Fire Bolt do significantly more damage than their aoe counterpart.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 9:42 pm 

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Fireball does more damage, as if I'm going to level another skill to add AR to a useless melee class opposed to increasing the actual defense of myself and my party by FAR more.

Either or, counters are counters and with the exception of your main boss killer(cold sorc not being one), you don't actually attack the boss. Orb trucks boss HP, I've leveled one from 1 to 95 and up until later parts of hell you can effectively pull huge chunks of life from a boss.

If they're immune to your main boss counter, well casting orb and moving from the counters is far more productive than spamming a single spell. Orb you can cast and run while maintaining motion while counters are chucked your way. Bolt you have to stream cast to even come close to the damage orb pulls.

Quote:
So to repeat my former statement, Ice Bolt and Fire Bolt do significantly more damage than their aoe counterpart.


Lemme add to that: If you're willing to sacrifice 20 points for damage in a skill you'll rarely use, sacrificing mana regen(warmth), huge armor buffs(frozen armor), or any other skill you choose to max.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 10:31 pm 
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frozen armor is a fine choice if you want defensive skills on your sorc. leveling another skill for more dmg is obviously superior if you are shooting for more dps.
so to repeat his former statement, it depends on your build.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:14 am 
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Again:
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Also, firebolt is awesome for dealing damage between meteor cooldowns on a boss. 200fcr + 60k+ firebolt is pretty health dps. Icebolt's damage gets pretty nice for a single target skill if too.


If you didn't bother to max the synergys for the higher damage single target spell thats your problem. you left it as an 80 point build.

Remember we are talking about fbolt and icebolt being "useless because they have too many synergys". If you bothered to max the synergys as much as you can, you would know that they deal way more damage than fire ball.

So you said they are useless without even maxing the synergys as much as poss? Why do you keep doing that and claiming stuff when you haven't even tried it btw?

I think what you are trying to say is:
"Ice bolt, Fire bolt and charged are useless because i don't want to max it's synergys. Give them the same damage for 60 points because I didn't realise they deal far more single target dps than fireball/glacial spike if you actually max the "useless" synergys" :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:44 am 

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I like skipping key skills like oak for a minor increase in damage(s/s the 60k fb, you said you could, calling you out on it) in minor situations that rarely occur. Because meteoring+throwing fireballs/bolts(in your case) is something I don't even do because it spams counters.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:00 am 
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I understand how CB can be dangerous vs bosses but why single target skills I can't? Since when counters are that deadly. I saw someone asking how melee zeal din deals with bosses when it does a lot of counters. Ekhm, I didn't know someone released a patch that boosted all onhit skills by 1000%. TBH Going 20 farmor on non cold nova sorc is pointless. Diminishing return def% that is in d2 makes it useless. Yes really. You can have 90k def or 180 and you'll have maybe 5% less to be hit. Not saying on my lame CL sorc I put one into farmor and have +550% def, that's enough to get my merc to 46k def. Ofc key skills like oak should never be skipped. Druids always played support role here. They're mix of medicore damage(well, getting boosted every patch so now it's better than sorcs' damage) and good support(spirits/summons).
So yeah, sorc doesn't have any key skills that one should always max to 20, so why not add extra to fbolt synergy. Ah Placebo of 20lvl FA. Right.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:37 am 
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Angel wrote:
I like skipping key skills like oak for a minor increase in damage(s/s the 60k fb, you said you could, calling you out on it) in minor situations that rarely occur.



LMFO, because your sorc has to spend points getting oak.
nobody is talking about that, we are talking about the sorc skills that are "useless because too many synergys"

roflroflroflrofl

You: cb is useless because it has too many synergys

me: there are plenty of skills with that many synergys

You: but fbolt and fball are crap and deal terrible damage

everyone else: no they deal way more damage

you: no they dont (posts a screenie that hasn't even bothered maxing the synergys)

everyone: erm, yes, they do


Ps. my old fire sorcs pic was an attatchment and i removed it ages ago. Don't think I have another one of her. I'll look. She was over 70k bolt though. You can ask drrod too as he usually maxed the firebolt synergys too. I know his blizz sorcs ice bolt was at 65ishk. Ice bolt is lower due to all cold attacks being weaker since they slow enemys too

Pps, don't have to screenshot anything, just do the math.

4*20% synergys = 4*400% = 1600% damage to base. Not including fire mastery or +% from gear.
Your screenshot just shows exactly our point. It has 2 synergys left to max and is only 1k less damage than fireball.
Seriously, you should quit while you are ahead, it's getting a little embarrassing.
The very fact you would post stuff as fact when you havent even bothered to check a fucking joke. (theres a skill calculator incase you didn't notice). its not hard to press some buttons on a calculator is it? or is that too much for you to manage too?

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Because meteoring+throwing fireballs/bolts(in your case) is something I don't even do because it spams counters.


lol wait, you mean like as many as a Tk sorc has to deal with? Certainly better than using way way way weaker f orb and recieving 20 counters for the same damage as 2 icebolt casts max.

Seriously, are you playing the same game everyone else is, because some of these statements are epic. :lol:

Edit:

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:15 pm 

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I didn't say CB was useless because it has too many synergies, I said it's bad game design since you'll never be able to max it so what's the fucking point of having them all?

I said ES is designed badly because you either have to max it or your TK will do pitiful damage, the synergy is a retarded skill, and if you max it for TK to do respectable numbers you're forced into a 95% build opposed to a myriad of builds 70-95.

My orb hit for 10k, 10k like 40 times, and yes it's 40 counters but a cold sorc doesn't attack bosses because it's a waste of time anyways. That bliz damage deals far more damage than icebolt regardless.


Cool dodge on the screenshot, can I post something from patches ago when skillers were in the game?


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Why is a waste anyway? In psn abs topic you said that psn chars performs ok not imba without 95 gear but here you're saying that hitting a boss with other skills(like orb/icebolt) is just a waste of time - aka if I understand you, only meteo/psn can bring bosses to their knees. Can you somehow expand your thought how a hell boss fight should be? Massive spell casting, tele around, oak/bo and all curses present or decoy and slowly but effective 20k plague. And of course solo or 2 ppl game even when official info says mod should be played in 3-6 ppl teams.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:30 pm 

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It's the safest way to kill a boss. It dies quickly enough, your icebolt/firebolt are going to be fucking PATHETIC until you start putting points into the later synergies and will do nothing but drop counters on your team.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:13 pm 

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:33 pm 
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40 times per orb? funny but it releases 1 missile every frame for a duration of 30 frames, so even if every single bolt hit, it would be 31 (1 from the nova at the end)

"when skillers were in the game"
but you get 5 shards now + more % skill damage + an lots more skills on gear (extra on armor, 2 on weap, 1 on gloves, and 1 on helm. caster damage is pretty much the same as it has always been. You should know that...

The other post is you just getting mad.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:13 pm 

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Shoots off like 16-20 when it breaks.

Damage was higher last patch if you had a full set of skillers.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Steel wrote:
aka if I understand you, only meteo/psn can bring bosses to their knees. .

DUH
only viable forms of damage brah !

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:19 am 
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Angel wrote:
Shoots off like 16-20 when it breaks.

Damage was higher last patch if you had a full set of skillers.


Aha... Ahaha.. Ahahaha.... Ahahahahahahaha :lol:

The nova at the end shoots off 16. every one of those hits right? lmfao. You would need the boss to be AROUND the orb when it breaks to get it to hit more than twice. Not to mention the fact that forbs hit functions are completely bugged and deal 0 damage alot of the time. So an enemy at the same position will get hit at the very most, 8 times, + it has a cooldown. When you could cast 2 ice bolts and deal way more damage, faster, and have less worry about counters or cooldowns.

damage was higher if you had a full set of skillers maybe, but not by much. At most, that sorc has 15 skillers. atm you get 5 shards, and an extra 5 on the regular caster gear (6 if caster boots). so 4 skill levels difference at the most. Yeh thats gonna drop that 65k ice bolt down below glacial spike/orb. :roll:

Anyway, were not talking about orb, were talking about skills that you miss out on being able to max by 8 points being completely useless, remember?

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:15 am 

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They are useless, I've actually played an orb sorc this season and orb does tremendous damage. 30+16 = 46, obviously not all are going to hit, but the vast majority of them are since ~75% of your orbs are going to be partial breaks(or you're bad), 15% are full breaks. Counters go flying, but at the very least you're able to move because of the cooldown, opposed to just spamming icebolt like a mindless drone and having counters fly towards you.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:23 am 
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lmao man, you do realise how the bolts are realease from orb right?

if a circle is made up of 64 directions, the first bolt is released at point 16 (clockwise, then 16 around it releases another, meaning every second and third one is aimed completely away from the boss. You really don't understand how that cuts single target dps down? np, continue gimping yourself. just stop complaining skills are useless because you can't use them effectively.
Orb is good if you can't aim the higher damage single hit spells I guess. You should stick to it if you can't aim bolt.

you also realise you can fire bolt, then take a whole 3 steps to the left to avoid a counter? You know is coming right at you and you know they are coming at 7fpa max. Unlike when you get a few lucky hits with orb that are 1 frame apart, destroying your team in the process. I feel for the folks you are teaming with. I've had fuck wit's do shit like that too before and it's not funny or clever. Just annoying to have some noob cause massive fps drops.

Orb is great for trashing, its even ok for soloing bosses. Spamming orb on a countering boss in a team game is a total dick move though.

Back to the point though.

"SKILLS THAT NEED 120 POINTS TO COMPLETELY MAX THE SKILL + SYNERGYS ARE USELESS. BUFF PLZ" :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:56 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Orb is great for trashing, its even ok for soloing bosses. Spamming orb on a countering boss in a team game is a total dick move though.


Done it. It's lol in sc for a few minutes


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:09 pm 

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If a real boss killer is hitting the boss, spamming icebolt or orb is useless since it'll die quickly and efficiently with you just standing by(which is why a team game designed around boss fights is completely backwards, anything beyond 3 people is just dead weight anyways, 3 people can complete everything in the game).

If it's immune to your boss killer, you can orb it to death faster than you can ice bolt it to death.


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 2:13 am 
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If it's immune to your boss killer, you can orb it to death faster than you can ice bolt it to death.
with a shitty damage icebolt thats true. Were talking about a maxed ice/firebolt here with synergys maxed (coz they are useless due to too many synergys remember)

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 2:14 am 

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Orb still does more damage and it's far safer. Counters are straight projectiles, when you're circling an enemy who is casting counters at you it's impossible to get hit by them!


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 3:30 am 
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during the orb cooldown you can cast 7 icebolts that deal 6 times the damage of the bolts from orb. you do the math...
nobody is stopping you doing what you are doing, you are just gimping your own damage. If you don't want to use it, don't. saying they are useless is completely wrong though.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 4:44 am 

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What fucking world can you cast 7 spells in 1 second?

7 fpa(assuming 200 fcr) is 3 casts per second, AKA you can get 3 casts off per orb since the orb cooldown is 1 second.

Assuming 40% radial strikes(12) and half orb breaks(8)

5k orb damage
30k bolt damage

30k*3=90k
5k*20=100k

If you're actually skilled, you can land full breaks 50% of the time+


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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:43 am 
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my bad, i was thinking about meteor/blizz cooldown.

40% radial strikes? no. more like 8 hits out of 30 bolts

30k*3=90k
5k*20=100k

why are you using your 30k damage icebolt when we are talking about a fully buffed icebolt/firebolt?

let me fix that for you:

50k*3 = 150k
5k*16 = 80k

Now, you can add those together if you use both. Or if you want to only use icebolt, you can deal almost 100% more damage, + recieve 80% less counters in the process.

AGAIN: the skills you said are useless "because you can't max them" are fine and hit much higher damage then their AoE counterparts. They are designed that way.

"If you are actually skilled" LMFAO, d2 requires no skill btw, its a point and click game. lmfao... skill... rofl.

Ps. last reply, i'm sick of going around and around in circles and it's time to ignore your useless posts.

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 Post subject: Re: List of problematic builds/skills
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:56 am 
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Forb has less than a half of screen range, in order to hit with orb and bolts you need to get really close, fbolt you can spam from safe distance. TBH I don't understand what's being discussed here. Sorcs are pure damage with 3 skills that you can leave as one skill wonders, all builds are 80 point-balanced (except fnova). F/Ibolts/CB being used in few builds as a base -Blizz/orb/meteo/hydra/TK/CL sorcs must have more synergies thus lower base damage if not maxed. You can go 100 point on these and have bigger damage than aoe counterparts. Or you can choose to max them or max lightningmastery/firemastery on cold sorcs.
Well, we can switch CB->TK->CS build to TK->CS->TEL, hihi.
Also you're forgetting that 1 sec delay is being calculated after you cast a spell. so it's 4xIbolt damage, unless you cast forb with 1 fpa.
Code:
Faster casting rate is found on a variety of equipment. This stat is most important for spell-casters, for obvious reasons. All spells are affected by this value, but note that some spells have a 1 second, or longer, delay between uses. For those spells, FCR equipment will lower the frames required for the actual casting animation, but the 1 second delay will still run (for 25 frames) after each cast.

For instance, if your character takes 11 frames to cast a spell that has a 1 second delay, that's 11 + 25 = 36 frames per use. If you you use FCR equipment to cut your casting frames to 7, you'll still have to wait 7 + 25 = 32 frames to cast it again. Saving 4 frames ever time you cast a spell will certainly add up over hundreds of casts, but the difference is less noticeable than it is with spells you can "spam" as quickly as your character can cast them.
Source: http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Breakpoin ... _Cast_Rate


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