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 Post subject: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:17 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Taking rough numbers from the zon I play with and have played.
3k base life
63% BO(cta)=4,890
110% Oak(druid)=8,190

Now you cast decoy
460%=45,864
63% bo=74,758
110% Oak=125,208 life


It would appear that these numbers are pretty close to correct (reference), which helps to explain the power of the decoy.

They are of course fairly idealized and it is important not to base all balance decisions on numbers like that. Some more realistic numbers that members of the community are likely to encounter (level30 decoy):

Worst case:
Zon life: 2500
Decoy: 2500 *400% = 10,000

"typical" case:
Zon life: 2500
CTA boost (60%): 4000
Decoy 3800 x 400% = 16,000

So it looks like getting a 10-16k life decoy is not terribly challenging. Just to check what happens earlier in the game, here are some lower level numbers:

Low level zon:
Zon life: 1000
Level 10 decoy = 2000 HP

There are a few variables in skills.txt which can tweak this:
lvl*par4 bonus hp%
par3 %hp of caster

par3 is currently set to 100 and par4 is set to 10. My thought is to drop par3 to 75% and set par4 to 2%.

That would net the following decoys:

ideal decoy (from Angel's numbers) = 32,197
worst decoy = 3000
typical decoy = 4800
low level zon = 900


Those numbers seem like solid targets to strive for.

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:06 pm 

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My math is correct on how it's calculated, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:08 pm 
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Angel wrote:
My math is correct on how it's calculated, right?

yep - when I ran it through my sheet it came out 125,209 which probably is just a rounding error somewhere along the line.

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:12 pm 

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Keep in mind BO and oak act differently on those actual life values. I merely multiplied, opposed to actually testing the health after them.

2980 health
72% bo = 4772


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:16 pm 
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with the low cooldown and very low mana cost + dodge/evade/avoid, they make solid tanks all round. Would be good to have it use a % of your remaining hp instead of max hp.

calc would = (((stat('maxhp'.accr)/100)*stat('hitpoints'.accr))/256)*(ln45/100)

set par 3 to 0 par 4 to 75 and par 5 to 2

the whole thing is then controlled by 1 calculation, based on 75% as a base (of your remaining hp), gaining 2% bonus of remaining hp per level.
Note: /256 is because life is in 256th's

The double buffing can be stopped with monstats2.txt if needed

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:18 pm 
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fairly certain that only valks use dodge/avoid/evade. The decoy will show the animation but not actually perform the action.

the rest of your stuff is beyond my editing skills. what sort of numbers would that generate?

*edit* fail - looks like they do use the dodge, etc skills. I just thought it was the animations. oh well.

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:19 pm 

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I think if double buffing was taken away the values of it would be far more acceptable.

I've always heard that decoys use dodge/avoid.


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:20 pm 
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the same numbers you posted above if the zon has full hp when she casts it. if she has 50%hp when she casts then the decoy would be half as strong. Just means you are better making sure your bulb is full before you actually cast (adds an element of strategy to the skill perhaps)

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:23 pm 

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I suppose, but even if that's the case, your health bulb will almost always be near full if you lead with decoy anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Yup, it won't effect the skill that much other than making it work as if it is making a real copy of the player at the time of casting (as it should be IMO). It's just using the values blue suggested but adding a twist, not using the original values with that formula.

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:18 pm 

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The problem with that is it'll still be as strong as it is now(which is unacceptable).


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:42 pm 
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what? blues numbers are unacceptable? I'm using blues numbers there. and simply adding another part to the calculation that lowers it further if you dont have full health.

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:49 pm 

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Talking about the current values.


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:52 pm 
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I'm using the suggested values in that formula
*(ln45/100)

par4=75
par5=2

Quote:
calc would = (((stat('maxhp'.accr)/100)*stat('hitpoints'.accr))/256)*(ln45/100)

set par 3 to 0 par 4 to 75 and par 5 to 2

the whole thing is then controlled by 1 calculation, based on 75% as a base (of your remaining hp), gaining 2% bonus of remaining hp per level.
Note: /256 is because life is in 256th's

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:38 pm 

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Do instead of 100% base life and 10% per level it'll start at 75% and go up by 2% per level?

That seems to make much more sense, however, I feel that double buffing should apply if it's nerfed that hard in terms of life.


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:54 am 

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A poison zon with 8k hp is gimping his damage for the sake of decoy i'd like to say. Mostly for the benefit of soloing imo. So if there are plans to gimp decoy and poison zon's damage please don't think a zon with 8k hp's has a 460k plague as well. Probably more like a 250-300k? depending on your peirce/gear etc.. My poison zon has 8k hp and 260k plague dmg, and he has all shards, brain, heart etc...

Also changes to decoy are going to effect every type of zon, not just poison zon. I'm more in favor of lowering poison zon's dmg then messing with decoy considering many zon builds tend to have less hp. Ms/strafe/guided zons don't need a gimp to their decoy for example. I'd like to say also through self oak the 8k hp is obtained which means when mephisto blasts your oak, you need to recast it, or cast your lower hp'd decoy (and hope it lasts) or run like hell and try to somehow manage to get them both up again. There are more things going on here then just saying oh 8k hp + decoy x oak/bo = 5435345345345 hp decoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:10 pm 

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Bowazon decoy can tank bosses NP as is on a full dex build. Not cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:00 pm 
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8k hp on a zon is easy with self oak and bo. It's not your base life but your life at the time of casting. That maks it much stronger is the 10% per level is counting already buffed life as base life.

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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:38 pm 

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what bosses have you tanked with a dex/bow zon build? You've had better luck then me.

8k hp on a zon is about max with using cta switch and self oak from wisp, which goes down often in a boss fight interferring with decoy recast. So the oak benefit is a bit of a toss up if you're fighting something tougher.

I'd like to say also i've seen very few tank builds being made this ladder. Even less succesfull tank builds. Most bosses are tanked from a combination of spamming summons from my experience. Having summons strong enough to tank bosses seems more like a solution to the lack of tank problem rather then a problem to me. If decoy is gimped to the point of not being able to tank bosses and spirit blades are too (i don't see how you can gimp one and not the other), i can see a lot of people waiting around for those elusive tank builds to join to clear bosses (fun stuff).


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 Post subject: Re: Decoy life values
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:58 pm 

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I can keep oak up in pretty much every boss fight I've done with the exception of diablo and baal, and even then it's still up about 80% of the time.

Pretty much every boss save the act bosses?


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