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 Post subject: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:56 pm 
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I think I am in the right ballpark with my math, but I would like to be sure.

Scenario:
Phys dmg character doing 10k dmg with 50% leech on gear against a monster with 90% physical resist and 30% Drain efficiency in Hell (1/4 leech penalty):

Dmg to monster: 1,000 pts
Dmg that can be leeched back: 300 pts
Life returned to the character: 37.5 pts

Counting in blocks and missed hits, and assuming at least a 5 frame attack, there should be a ballpark of 3 hits per second - bringing the inflow of life to about 112 life per second.

As a comparison, the Heal+ from prayer will pulse about every 2 seconds. So this would be comparable to a healer with Heal +224, but will in a steady stream rather than in the burst of heal that you see with a healer.

Am I getting the numbers wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Since lifetap was brought up elsewhere, here are the numbers on that:

Scenario:
Phys dmg character doing 10k dmg against a monster with 90% physical resist using lifetap (which sets drain efficiency to 100 and heals at 10%):

Dmg to monster: 1,000 pts
Dmg that can be leeched back: 1000 pts
Life returned to the character: 100 pts

Alternatively using -25% Amp you can get:

Dmg to monster: 3,500 pts
Dmg that can be leeched back: 1050 pts
Life returned to the character: 131 pts

The benefit to lifetap of course is that you don't need to have 50% leech on your gear.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:15 pm 
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updated to include amp/lifetap comparison.

No comments? Math is accurate?

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:03 pm 
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you are missing the drain effectiveness column on that monster while amp is active. Generally they have around 15-20% drain effectiveness in hell IIRC.

With tap:
total 60% lifesteal
90% resist on boss
1000 damage
100% drain effectiveness (not counting difficulty penalty)

100 damage is dealt.
60% of that heals you
60 life returned per hit.

With amp
50% lifesteal
65% resist on boss
1000 damage
average of 20% drain effectiveness in hell (0 vs act bosses) also not counting the difficulty penalty

350 damage dealt
20% (drain effect) of 50%(lifesteal) = 10% working lifesteal
35 health returned perhit.

this is with the assumption that an enemy has 90% resist to start with. The gap grows larger if physical resist gets lower however.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:21 pm 
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No, i covered the Drain (DE) - that's the bit where "dmg that can be leeched back" in my statement. It is also why I asked Trafalgar to include it when he updated this page (http://blue.arimyth.com/BossResists.html).

The part that I missed is that you can combine the flat 10% value from lifetap with the rest of your gear - the 60% that you are getting.

I am fairly confident that Lifetap ignores the NM/Hell penalty, so I was assuming it worked on a different mechanic than ordinary leech. I could be wrong, but that at least can be tested. My assumption though is that non-lifetap forms of leech are susceptible to both DE and the difficulty penalty, which impacts the calculations quite significantly.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:29 pm 
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oh yeh i just noticed that. If the char is geared the same in both instances, lifetap comes out on top by almost an almost 100% increase using 90% resist as a baseline.

Hmm, what about with 50% resist as a base

1k damage
60% lifesteal
100 drain
50% phys resist

500 damage dealt
300 per hit

Amp:
1k damage
50% leech
20 drain effect
25%res

750 damage dealt
20% of 50% lifesteal
75 life healed per hit.

Growth seems exponential rather than linear

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Assuming you are right though and they do combine, lets run your numbers more accurately and stick with 10k dmg rather than 1k dmg to bring it in line with my previous examples and prevent confusion:

With tap:
10% + (50% * 1/4) = total 22.5% lifesteal
90% resist on boss
10,000 damage
100% drain effectiveness

1000 damage is dealt.
22.5% of that heals you
225 life returned per hit.

With Amp:
(50% * 1/4) = total 12.5% lifesteal
65% resist on boss
10,000 damage
30% drain effectiveness

3500 damage is dealt.
Only 1050 of that dmg can be leeched though due to DE
12.5% of that heals you
131.25 life returned per hit

I am still not sure the %leechs from normal gear and lifetap add though.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:36 pm 
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yes they do add, it adds bonus steal on top of your current steal. Also the lower the monsters drain effectiveness is, the higher the effect lifetap has over amp. So vs an act boss, would be more noticable.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:21 am 
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Assuming that PureRage is correct (which is generally a safe assumption), I put together some numbers for expected life leeching in Hell using life tap (orange header) and no life tap (blue headers).

They are using ballpark estimates of what things would look like in Hell after a reduction in physical resistance and a slight increase in drain effectiveness. It takes in to account the Hell penalty (leech is cut 1/4). The values on the left would be whatever your gear says (so for example if you are using Demonhorn's edge and Grandfather you would be in the 40% column).

What are thoughts on these values?

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:12 pm 
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In those numbers, the only time a well made melee character doesn't leech for insane numbers with Life Tap up is at 90% physical resistance. At 90% physical resistance, your damage is so pitiful you won't be doing anything significant without Amplify Damage, effectively changing nothing.

At 80%-70% (Values you may actually do some damage w/o Amp, 80% being low, 70% being the equivalent of ~60% Amplify Damage on a boss like Diablo) the healing you return will be great.
Characters geared for leech (not hard to do, some of the best melee gear comes with it) will be hitting 1k+ heals quite easily in the 80-70% range without sacrificing skulls in weapons or additional LL from weapons at all. Healing for 2k if you wanted to would be fairly easy to obtain in the 70% range, and most likely very possible in the 80% range.
Keep it mind gearing for 100%+ Life Leech really isn't that hard. It's an abundant stat that's usually apparent on gear melee would already consider choosing (15%+ LL Blood Rings being one of many examples)

As far as the Drain Effectiveness table, it depends on where you're slapping that 30 value on. Is it on act bosses? If so, 30 should be a bit high. Melee characters can already leech pretty well against sub-bosses at ~20-25 Drain Effectiveness, so 20 should probably be the highest you want on an act boss.
Another thing to keep in mind when doing the Drain Effectiveness table is that Life Leech will be available with Amplify Damage up. Obviously the lower physical resistance is, the more you will leech back, so the numbers you have currently could get quite bigger depending on your Amplify Damage values.

Questions:
1) One your Life Tap value tables, are you already factoring in the 10% additional Life Leech from Tap? Otherwise, you'd have to move a bracket down for every calculation based on current LL gear. (IE: 40% from gear would be calculated in the 50% bracket)
2) What are your proposed values for Amplify Damage? This will help give accurate numbers to how effective certain Drain Effectiveness values will be, whether they be too weak or too strong (like I believe 30 is).


Anyway, these charts show what I've already stated before. If you want to reduce boss physical resistance to an acceptable level without Amplify Damage (70%-80%), Life Tap has to be completely rebalanced. That would most likely require it losing its only niche as a skill (Leeching the unleechable), effectively breaking the skill.
I still don't see why you're choosing this direction to rebalance physical resistance when we already had Amplify Damage values that worked. Even at 70-80% physical resistance, you're still going to want Amplify Damage to do any sort of good damage to a boss. Less work, less balancing, and less chance of messing something up.
Anyway, hopefully this feedback helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:21 pm 
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1) yes
2) no change
3) already said why we aren't changing amp

nothing really interesting in your post. less words - more facts and numbers. Check the boss resistance link for more info. Don't forget to add the boss charm values in.

more valuable feedback would be actual numbers, not opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:42 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
1) yes
2) no change
3) already said why we aren't changing amp

nothing really interesting in your post. less words - more facts and numbers. Check the boss resistance link for more info. Don't forget to add the boss charm values in.

more valuable feedback would be actual numbers, not opinions.


If you're not changing Amplify Damage values, you're looking at bosses with 35%-15% physical resistance with Amplify Damage up. That's more than 90% Amplify Damage on bosses like Hell Diablo. I'm assuming your values of reducing physical resistance to 90/80/70 are without the boss charms, because if they aren't, they are still PI in Hell, and this whole discussion is a null point.
I understand you prefer numbers & theory craft to actual experience with this game, it's quite evident based on the screenshot of your Barbarian. So to appease you I'll give you some numbers.

100% Life Leech on a 90% physical resistant boss, assuming 30 Drain Effectiveness.
A GOOD melee character will be hitting 20k average damage quite easily. With maximum Amplify Damage, you have a boss with ~35% physical resistance.
You will be leeching 975 per hit. That's 1/9th of your barbarians life bulb per hit, or ~1/15th-1/20th of a character with good life. Act bosses already do piss poor damage, and the only time you have to juv is when residual damage adds up. If I'm healing 1k per hit, I'd never have to juv again.

That's without Life Tap, while doing awesome damage because the bosses physical resistance is lower than it was possible with an awesome Amplify Damage last patch. 20k is even a low ball number for good build, you could easily hit numbers like 1.5k+ healing with higher damage even at 90% physical resistance.

That enough theory craft for you? Nevermind the fact that I was the one who had to tell you about Life Tap being insane if you were to lower physical resistance and you not knowing the mechanics of how it works.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:38 pm 
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If anyone wants to ballpark what 90% resist/30% Drain is like in Hell, you can hit up Tobial. He is currently at 88% (50% base + 33% from charm) and has 25% Drain.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:00 pm 

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Lowering physical resistance to a point where damage is decent without amp is just silly if lifetap is kept in any form where it increases - substantially - how much you heal from lifeleech.

It should just be scrapped all-together if you're not going to adjust amp to be the only way melee do damage, which in my opinion isn't how the game should be, but aside from adjusting values and testing out every boss(not going to happen) it's just not going to come out to a balanced state of the game.

Amp worked perfect for the values in terms of damage, it honestly was on par(a necro with maxed amp and a decked barb) with the damage now(maxed LR + poison nec). The only difference is the barb had to be careful of IM on certain bosses, where as the javazon doesn't have to be scared of anything in the game other than poison immunes.

I feel as though the high amounts of pierce on caster stuff already balances, immunities aside, the damage values even with amp up of the melee characters and the elemental characters.


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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:18 pm 
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give me a ballpark for what appropriate values for how much life leech should return.

ideally - you would reconstruct my table using your view of accurate numbers, but I recognize that is considerable work.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
100% Life Leech on a 90% physical resistant boss, assuming 30 Drain Effectiveness.
A GOOD melee character will be hitting 20k average damage quite easily. With maximum Amplify Damage, you have a boss with ~35% physical resistance.
You will be leeching 975 per hit.


List for me the gear and character to hit 20k average damage (not just max) and 100% leech and we can evaluate whether it is a problem or not.

What value per hit do you think should be the target?

You posted nothing new or interesting about Life Tap, so can you set aside your nonsensical "oh I am so cool" posting and just focus on the real information? Otherwise, I will just go back to ignoring you and you can keep complaining about how no one ever listens to you (which is because you are a prick btw). I only responded this time because you included some numbers and information to respond to, so far though it hasn't been anything very interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:51 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
List for me the gear and character to hit 20k average damage (not just max) and 100% leech and we can evaluate whether it is a problem or not.

What value per hit do you think should be the target?

You posted nothing new or interesting about Life Tap, so can you set aside your nonsensical "oh I am so cool" posting and just focus on the real information? Otherwise, I will just go back to ignoring you and you can keep complaining about how no one ever listens to you (which is because you are a prick btw). I only responded this time because you included some numbers and information to respond to, so far though it hasn't been anything very interesting.


Tomb Reaver - Dual Physical Faceted (+106% ED total, 41 min, 30 max)
Ravenlore - 20% Life Leech
Steel Carapace
15% LL Blood Ring x2
15% LL Amulet
Dracul's Grasp or Steelrends - 12% LL (I used Dracul's, so damage would be higher w/ Rends)
Nosferatu's Coil - 10% LL
Blood Boots - 8% LL (not a bad choice, considering all unique melee boots suck now)
Strength: 232

Life Leech from gear - 83%
Level 11 Feral Rage fully charged - 22% Life Steal
Life Steal total - 105%

Level 30 Maul fully charged + level 30 Fury (results in an 80pt build, lycan/oak/maul/fury)
Fury Damage - 17.5k - 35.5k
Average leechable damage - 26.5k

Oh look, more average damage than I thought I'd obtain with that set-up. Meaning I'll be leeching more than 1k per hit with your Drain Effectiveness & Amplify Damage values. Other well built 2h melee builds will be able to reach leech like this as well, this is just one example.

I've already told you my thoughts about drain effectiveness in my first post, that they should be no more than 20 on act bosses. You already have a spreadsheet worked out, you can input that value and it will give you your desired numbers for comparison.
Actually, to revise my statement, it shouldn't even be 20. With that set up, assuming a 90% physical resistant boss, max Amplify Damage & 20 Drain Effectiveness, you will be leeching ~900 per hit. 15 Drain Effectiveness will yield ~680 per hit, which is still a beefy number, but much more acceptable considering how much the character is geared for leech. These are also used with your ridiculous Amplify Damage values (over 90% Amplify on someone like Hell Diablo), so what Drain Effectiveness value should be is largely dependent on how much physical resistance a monster has. As it is, you could change nothing on DE and with your current physical resist values, I could still leech quite a bit.

I'm sorry not working out a spread sheet makes all of my feedback invalid. I've made a melee character this patch that's done more than WW trash, and I know that my meager leech (~30%) with the current Amplify Damage values kept my life bulb at 100% on sub bosses who have 25 Drain Effectiveness.

You're proposing to not only have lower physical resistance values than last patch, but to increase Drain Effectiveness of hell bosses to 3x their current value. There is a reason they're so low, because if they're set too high, melee will be invincible as long as they are dealing damage.

What you're proposing is allowing melee to have the equivalent of a healer spamming Holy Bolt on them constantly through-out any boss fight. Hell, actually more than that as 1k average heal per hit is better than 9FPA ~750 average heal from a Healer.

But do keep acting like you know all this even though Life Tap & Leech issues have had to be explained to you piece by piece in this thread and the previous one.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
But do keep acting like you know all

Seriously man, would you quite being such an asshat all the time? You are the one walking around like Al Gore proclaiming how smart you are at every turn. Oh my gosh - lifetap sets drain effectiveness to 100% so you do more leech! Seriously man, I *know* that. So get off your high horse already.

So what you said values should be at 20% for DE. ok fine - tell me WHY. Don't just tell me. It doesn't work that way, you need to present information. You walk around like I should just follow you around like some sort of zombie and do whatever you say. That's crap. You got something to say - cool, say it and back it up. Otherwise, it isn't worth shit.

Now, regarding your post.
I guess you could go dual phy facets in a tomb reaver, but I think you'd be better off with some sort of IAS instead to hit the fury breakpoints. Still - I am fine with that sort of gear performing well. I don't really have a concern with a druid/necro (with max amp) combo having that sort of impact.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:40 pm 
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To recap, a high physical dmg build with gear very focused towards leech (100%) would be getting:

No Amp (90%) = 150pts (30% DE) 125pts (25% DE)
ctc Amp (65%) = 525pts (30%DE) 438pts (25% DE)
necro max amp (35%) = 975 (30% DE) 813 (25% DE)
Lifetap (90%) = 550 pts

About what I expected where you are probably always better going with Amp rather than Lifetap when boss resists are this high. Looks like as long as Phy resist values are in the 80-95% range and DE is in the 20-30% range, it should make for a good melee experience for most players. So a slight bump in DE (which is currently set at around 10-15%) and decrease in phy resist (which is currently around the 120-140% range), looks like it should be pretty solid.

That's about consistent with my expectations.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:53 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Seriously man, would you quite being such an asshat all the time? You are the one walking around like Al Gore proclaiming how smart you are at every turn. Oh my gosh - lifetap sets drain effectiveness to 100% so you do more leech! Seriously man, I *know* that. So get off your high horse already.


But... you didn't know that. That aside, my first post was perfectly polite and informative. It was reciprocated with you being a pretentious dick acting as if you already know all there is to know about the subject.
Obviously, this isn't true, and I believe the attitude I received warranted my negative responses. Maybe if you could try to accept feedback and criticism, you wouldn't receive such "asshat" like behavior from people.

blue_myriddn wrote:
So what you said values should be at 20% for DE. ok fine - tell me WHY. Don't just tell me. It doesn't work that way, you need to present information. You walk around like I should just follow you around like some sort of zombie and do whatever you say. That's crap. You got something to say - cool, say it and back it up. Otherwise, it isn't worth shit.


I did tell you why. Melee already leeches fine versus sub-bosses with higher DE than 20%. You could have easily slapped 20% in your spreadsheet, and seen the values for yourself. Or do you want me to hold your hand through everything so you CAN follow me like a zombie?

blue_myriddn wrote:
Now, regarding your post.
I guess you could go dual phy facets in a tomb reaver, but I think you'd be better off with some sort of IAS instead to hit the fury breakpoints. Still - I am fine with that sort of gear performing well. I don't really have a concern with a druid/necro (with max amp) combo having that sort of impact.


Without any physical facets, you're hitting 21k average damage with that set-up. This will result in ~1k lifesteal per hit. You'd hit a 3FPA Fury with 2x Uber Amethysts, resulting 8.3 attacks per second. Let's assume a solid 4 attacks per second due to block & misses.
That results in ~4k life healed per second. Versus an act boss.
A Healer with an average gear hits ~750 Holy Bolt. At 9FPA (rare for a healer), you'd be healing ~2k per second (2.7 bolts per second).

You're effectively giving that Druid twice the effect of a healer spamming Holy Bolt on him at all times. If you've ever experienced tanking while Holy Bolt is being spammed, its a dream where no potions exist. To double that value is perfectly fine?

If you say so. I'm not gonna complain about melee being invincible next patch.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:08 am 

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If you legitimately make the values what you're thinking about making them, this game is going to be far easier than running it on a poison zon this season. Poison zon at the very least has to use potions.


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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:44 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I am still not sure the %leechs from normal gear and lifetap add though.

I remain unsure on this and I am leaning towards it simply not being true. I am getting more convinced that lifetap works on an entirely different mechanic. The two points I have run across so far have been:

Necrolis from Phrozenkeep wrote:
Lifetap uses a different method of leeching life
http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/ ... =4&t=49331

Baerk wrote:
Life tap is independant of life leech from gear. It should be noted however that life tap does not suffer from the difficulty penalty unlike life leech. This of course means life tap is not only stronger than life leech in the drain effectiveness aspect, but the difficulty penalty aspect as well (since it ignores both). Because of this ability to ignore both penalties that's why life tap is so strong in the later difficulties of this mod (because each 1% of life tap translates to 16% LL against beasts and 32% LL against demons which is of course some serious extra leeching power in hell).

Would be curious to know for sure. I have some video footage of some tests I ran against norm sarina and NM countess with BTS that I still need to sit down and run through - perhaps they will give a definitive answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:01 pm 
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Easy to check. put 100% lifesteal on gear, go smack a fallen. set lifetap to 1% lifesteal in skills.txt. Go cast tap and smack the same fallen. If it's only adding the lifetap leech you will only leech 1% and the 100% on gear will be ignored.

If its done in norm, the drain effect wont skew the results.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:12 pm 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Easy to check. put 100% lifesteal on gear, go smack a fallen. set lifetap to 1% lifesteal in skills.txt. Go cast tap and smack the same fallen. If it's only adding the lifetap leech you will only leech 1% and the 100% on gear will be ignored.

If its done in norm, the drain effect wont skew the results.

Don't think that would do it.
You would still leech 100% from your normal gear each time.

A better test would be smacking a monster with say 1% DE with your 100% gear. Then cast lifetap (set to 1%) and smack the same monster.

The annoying part is getting your life low enough that you could notice it.

Feel like running that test? You are better at single player testing than me.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:18 pm 

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Make a weapon with drain life on it, and make the weapon you're testing with have low damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:30 pm 
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ok, update:

100% lifesteal weapon
200 phys damage
100k life fallen as enemy
drain column set to 1
lifetap set to 1%

without lifetap
leeching 2 hp back per swing

With tap
leeching 4 hp back per hit


This means lifetap is setting the drain to 1 for the bonus lifesteal on tap.

Regular lifesteal works as usual (no bonus from lifetap)

Recrunch the numbers:
10% unresisted lifesteal with tap
50% resisted life leech with tap

Looks like that will be just fine at first glance

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:45 pm 
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Whoops. Looks like I was blatantly wrong. Good thing the values were tested. Made a bunch of squawking for nothing, so my apologies over that.

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:48 pm 
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thx for testin that out PureRage

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:18 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
Whoops. Looks like I was blatantly wrong. Good thing the values were tested. Made a bunch of squawking for nothing, so my apologies over that.


:mrgreen: you and me both :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:43 am 
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does this mean the likelihood of a summer reset is increasing?

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 Post subject: Re: Math check on life leech
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:26 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
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I must say I gained some valuable information from this thread. Been one of those really good reads on the forums of late.

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