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 Post subject: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:12 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:11 am
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Hi guys!
I've read many posts about bowzon and I thought I will make one for Tundra runs. I've read somewhere that your dmg comes from weapon and dexterity. So, my idea was to make a build something like this: 20 valk 20 decoy 1-5 multi and 40-60 elemental bow skills. With many allskills my multishot can reach 20+ lvl even with 1 point. So I thought I would make an immozon (as my friend already has a freezing cold zon), but an other friend (who already has an immozon) told me that his lategame dmg sucks and I would be better with a plain physical zon. My question is: is a 20 multi 20 strafe/guided not a complete waste if your dmg comes from bow and dex only? I understand that in tundra I would only use multishot with my immozon anyway but I could dmg bosses at least if I need to be (because boss phys res in hell). What do you guys suggest? Should I put my skills in strafe and multi for better trashkilling and completely ignoring bosses, or it wouldn't make any difference if I would max those physical skills? And finally, I would like to ask your stat/gear suggestion for tundra or lategame. Sorry for the long post and thx for your answers! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
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You don't do damage to bosses with elemental bow skills so just go pure physical for farming tundra.

20 multi
20 GA
20 Valk
20 decoy


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:12 am 
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what? you ever played immo? its great for bosses. Physical damage comes from the weapon and dex, maxing multi = waste of time as with 5-6points you can get 24 arrows
maxing ga = waste of time for tundra as immo >>> and damages over a small area too. Not to mention you can pierce fire resist yourself. You also gt a strong secondary element to use instead of being a 1 dimensional build.

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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:59 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:11 am
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Now I have some additional questions: should I max all synergies for Immo and make a 60 pts build or should I just max Fire arrow and keep it as a 40 pts build? And finally what merc is the best for a immolation-multi hybrid build? Act 2 and act 5 comes in my mind first for good tanking but act 3 and perhaps act 1 is an interesting choice with Faith for fana. Thx for help!


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:10 pm 

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It's great for bosses in nm if you're level 99 in a 1 player game!


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:15 pm 
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sounds like a failed build attempt. I had one last patch with much worse gear that you can get now and she was awesome for bosses. Duo'd everything to act 4 hell with a cold zon with her.

Fast attack + decoy ftw.

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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:54 pm 

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Multi = GA damage = most of your damage.

GA = how you kill named units.

Immo = worthless, even when running +skills and pierce = more worthless in physical gear.

Failed build? Sounds like you're just trying to give people higher expectations than there really is on a build, much like Blue likes to pretend melee is effective.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:13 am 
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No need to pretend anything, I've played the build a few times so I know it works. If it sucks for you then you built it wrong, simple as that.
Yes, you made a mess of the build if you are doing no damage to bosses with immo. IDK what the fuck you done to the build if guided is out damaging immo on act bosses. Using ravenclaw still maybe?

What problems did you have with the build exactly? I'm not trying to take the piss, I'm honestly interested as it's kinda hard to mess the build up.

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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:25 am 

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Guided outdamages immo on uniques/champs without a doubt.

Immo does outdamage on actual bosses, but it's damage is so paltry dumpy no one gives a fuck when any real boss killer can just kill a boss in a few seconds anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:42 am 
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So... I'll ask again, what problems are you having with your Immozon?

immo firepatch hits multiple enemys while they swing at the decoy. You kill a mob of champs a lot faster than a single target skilljust with the fire patches, not including impact damage + fire pierce.

Any "real" bosskiller? You mean like a guided/MS zon? at least with immo you can solo bosses. granted it takes longer than pois skills (that EVERYONE uses as a baseline for some reason) but it's still fast enough. For trashing, 1 point multi/guided was fine for me, though I only used it if i needed a quick hp/mana recovery.

You can't brush it off and say, "well another char can do it better so whats the point". requiring 1 less arrow to kill trash is hardly a problem. Having something in your back pocket that can tear a boss up is a million times better than saving an arrow here and there on a trash run.

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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:49 am 
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Quote:
Guided outdamages immo on uniques/champs without a doubt.
lol. putting more than 1 into ga is a fail already. 1point strafe now outdamages ga.
Immo is a great skill. Last patch I played her from start to hell baal having 0 problems. Using full mav I had 17k immo with like 18skillers, @95 I switched to custom gear and damage was 27k@8fpa.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:51 pm 

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Quote:
18skillers


I wonder why you were effective.

Strafe doesn't outdamage GA.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:16 pm 
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you can hit the same damage roughly as last patch without skillers. more pierce and more + skills on gear. compare any elemental build to last patch and the difference is only 10%(ish) on the char screen (though pierce is slightly more abundant now). Guided lost its punch when it lost its piercing ability. Fire 1 immo arrow into a tighy knit group and you have multiple fire patches spawned together for massive damage stacking.

Have you played immo or are you guessing?

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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:47 pm 

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Guided did lose it's punch when it doesn't pierce anymore because it was imbalanced back then. Yet it's still a ridiculously strong skill and far better than strafe.

The difference is maybe only 10% at 99, but earlier than that it's literally double damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:14 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:22 pm
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If you want to make a zon for tundra farming (as your original post says), max multi-shot, strafe, decoy, valk, and maybe strategy? Don't bother with an immo/ms hybrid. You need to load in tons of dex with your stat points to do nice dmg with multi-shot. This is going to leave you with really low hp's. So even if you keep a 2nd gear setup to immolate act bosses, you're going to have trouble staying alive. A 1 pt magical arrow is plenty of magic dmg to deal with the uni/champs/phys. immunes when strafe won't suffice. If there isn't a crowd around the uni/champs though, nothing beats the 12.5 attacks a second of strafe along with an atmas amulet. My strafe on my 90 zon does apx. 30k max dmg at 12.5 attacks a second. Don't bother with guided imo. If you need a single target attack, magic arrow is plenty of dmg and an alternative element attack for 1 pt. Since monsters generally have lower magic res. you can even keep a bow off hand with diamonds in it for - enemy mag res, but it's not needed.

Btw, Strafe is great for targeting sneaky chargers. Since it auto targets you can kill them before they're on your screen most of the time.

Also, i have a 90 multi-shot zon who tears through trash. I also have a 96 Immozon who tears through trash (a bit slower then the ms) and damages bosses nicely. I mean, Immolation is no meteor but it shouldn't be. You have castable tanks and immo is much better for trash.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:58 am 
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Angel wrote:
Quote:
18skillers


I wonder why you were effective.

Strafe doesn't outdamage GA.

I wasn't just effective - I was destroying everything in 4-5ppl game - we were a team. I was using maybe 10 skillers till 95 because had to use a lot of +str charms to wear 150str req mav gloves. I bet you can do a better immo now with new crafts(20/20fire diadems) but requires a lot of thinking to cover lack of res mavinas provides.
And yeah, strafe does outdamage GA. 12 arrows @2nhd. GA doesn't use AR but still can be blocked, damage per arrow is just the same. Maxed strategy + 700 dex = no need AR in 99% cases. GA is more effective vs moving targets like Diablo or Guardian, that's it. But I can be wrong, I've just played my zon from lvl 1 to 99 using only strafe/multi.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:59 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:11 am
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Frank wrote:
If you want to make a zon for tundra farming (as your original post says), max multi-shot, strafe, decoy, valk, and maybe strategy? Don't bother with an immo/ms hybrid. You need to load in tons of dex with your stat points to do nice dmg with multi-shot. This is going to leave you with really low hp's. So even if you keep a 2nd gear setup to immolate act bosses, you're going to have trouble staying alive. A 1 pt magical arrow is plenty of magic dmg to deal with the uni/champs/phys. immunes when strafe won't suffice. If there isn't a crowd around the uni/champs though, nothing beats the 12.5 attacks a second of strafe along with an atmas amulet. My strafe on my 90 zon does apx. 30k max dmg at 12.5 attacks a second. Don't bother with guided imo. If you need a single target attack, magic arrow is plenty of dmg and an alternative element attack for 1 pt. Since monsters generally have lower magic res. you can even keep a bow off hand with diamonds in it for - enemy mag res, but it's not needed.

Btw, Strafe is great for targeting sneaky chargers. Since it auto targets you can kill them before they're on your screen most of the time.

Also, i have a 90 multi-shot zon who tears through trash. I also have a 96 Immozon who tears through trash (a bit slower then the ms) and damages bosses nicely. I mean, Immolation is no meteor but it shouldn't be. You have castable tanks and immo is much better for trash.


Now I wanna make a multi/strafezon :)
What merc should I take act 5 bear or wolf? I thought about these guys since my hp will be low and the extra tankege will be useful (also psn dmg for phys immunes). And how much str/vita should I have, base 100 vita is enough? And about gear, I thought about these: WF, Holy Crafted Armor, Blood Crafted 3 BowGloves, Andy's or Kira's?, WT, Nosferatu or IF, Bk ring with a HolyCrafted ring? and Atma's amu? Any advice is appreciated. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:27 pm 

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A2 for might+fanatacism.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 pm
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Although you lose might aura and/or fanata depending on gear I prefer an act1 nm/hell cold arrow merc. Freezing arrow will freeze a lot of trash in place. As I haven't yet found the runes for faith I'm using an eth Stonehowl xbow. Works great on packs of chargers.

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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:23 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:22 pm
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A2 might merc w/ fanat weapon for sure. You don't need to freeze what you can kill at the same speed imo. Decoy and valk tank fine, I doubt you'll need the merc tank support but the a2 merc will help with this as well. As far as stats go minimal strength just enough for your equipment, vit is up to you... but more vit = less dex = less damage. Equipment wise, you want as much dex as you can fit in aside from getting the ias you need for your highest bp. For res you will probably need charms.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:39 am 

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Immo damage once you get out of a3 nightmare is fucking pitiful. Made worse by the fact that you have to constantly spam the skill and keep it around 100% uptime at 7 fpa for it to even deal decent damage.

Here's a ton of flaws with the actual build that I've found in playing it through the game:

*BRC has knockback on it and is outclassed in damage by a magic bow you can buy at level 45/70, and this magic bow attacks five thousand times faster. The mat bow needs to be remade into something that'll be useable by an immo/FA zon, since it really has no use as it is. 4os, +4 zon, +4 immo/FA, +20% fire/cold damage, level 95 req

*Your damage is pitiful in comparison to other boss killers and your trash clearing is awful in comparison to other trash clearers. You can do both but it's impractical to kill any real bosses due to how the damage of the skill functions. Yes, it does outstanding damage when you can drop an arrow into a pack of enemies and have an automatic 10 patches on the ground. This never happens with bosses, and you're bottlenecked in terms of damage by only being able to keep up 10 patches at once. This does decent damage if only for the fact you'll never keep 10 patches up without a boneprison necro to eat up every and all counters. And even then, bliz/meteor/etc counters will still get you, not to mention the mapwide stomps like duriel has.

*This build really needs some sort of trash clearing skill beyond the dumpy ones it already has. Unless it's boss killing is stepped up, it should at the very least be able to clear decently quick. Short of equipping like a multi zon and maxing multi, this isn't possible with the current skills. Luckily explosive or fire arrow can be remade into something actually useful. Most builds have multiple skills they utilize, teeth/spear/spirit, FB/meteor, nova/strike, this one is once you get immo, you don't cast anything else.

*Suffers the same problems as all 2h builds. It's res is fucking ATROCIOUS. Literally have to fill my inventory with res charms to get res. The nerfs to res did nothing but limit certain builds to richer players who have charms. There is essentially no difference in equipped res charms other than having enough of them because you did away with skillers.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:30 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:22 pm
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mind posting up your equipment on your immozon? I've been doing very well with mine. Sorry if it seems like an insult or pain in the ass but i just don't get it. In a big game boss situation it's not the greatest damage in the world. It's good not great. For trash though mine kills even the champ/uniqs extremely fast. Fi's are a pain but between strafe/merc they're not too bad. Since immo's more of a linear attack it does better in say aw or glacial, but still isn't bad in tundra. Fanat on my merc helps a ton, dunno.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:59 am 

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Kiras
+5/10 bow
+2/-12
Fire gauntlets
+1 caster boots
arachs
1 zon res ring
1 zon 10% fire ring
2/10 fire zak

My sockets are taken up by ias jewels, I'm fragile as fuck, and I run out of mana constantly. I clear trash that I hit like a champ, it dies in a few arrows, but in general I can't cover enough of the screen as efficiently as say teeth/multi or even the lesser clearing skills like orb/fireball/bliz.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:54 am 
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change those rings to eyes of flame, (pierce and manasteal to be used with multishot for full mana recovery) change the boots to infernostrides.

you dont need to hit most of the screen, just the pack that is surrounding your decoy.
I actually find it best to get an enorous bunch on the decoy then bursting them all with a few shots. saves arrows. You can drag every monster in each "segment" of tundra to a single point in each segment and burst them all with immo and clear the imps after that with multi easily. The bigger and tighter knit the pack is the higher your damage is as a single arrow can pierce 15-20 enemys close together to deal insane dps and stack up a shit ton of fire. (100% pierce is mandatory for this build)
Holy fire pally + kuko is also GG due to the same mechanics of tight group = more damage.
Even Immo A1 mercs are GG in places like glacial/ancients way/citadel/vaults.

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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:20 am 

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Need the res from the ring and the mana from the boots.

Your method takes forever to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:42 am 
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you won't need mana when you have the mana steal from rings + multi

That method takes about 25 seconds per segment, the tighter and bigger you can make the group, the faster they die. you can stack about 7 explosions per target per arrow @ 7fpa (splash + flames). If they are spread out, you are cutting your damage by about 70%

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 Post subject: Re: Need clarification on Bowzon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:34 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:22 pm
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yeah i think more (- enemy res) will help. i use:

Brc - 1 ruby/skull/amethyst
Topaz craft helm 3 bow, -14 +14, 4 rubies (a gift, thanks again)
Templars - 4 rubies
2x -10, +8/9 ele fire rings (sometimes 1 wisp for oak/sob)
Imm flesh belt
Lava gouts
Infernostrides
Highlords/zak amulets

gives high bp's with fanat on merc, over 100 - enemy res, lots of mana leech, enough life leech for ms to catch you up when need be, and a strong decoy if you decide to solo bosses. For res i'd try to gather some charms if you're short. With that gear setup you kill things nice and fast.. Throw in some shards, annilus, etc and it's really nice. Also, i'd recommend xp/farming in Ancients way/glaical instead of tundra/wsk.. few fi's and the area is more linear which is better for immo.

Edit: i'm not sure what lvl your zon is but mavs seemed an ok substitute untill you can find better stuff.


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