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 Post subject: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:32 am 

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Barbs deal physical damage and therefor are useless in hell on any real boss. You're pretty much going to be at the mercy of mob rolls, if anything is stoneskin chances are you're not dealing damage. My barb just farms gold and is a bo/hork bitch.


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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:59 am 
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Angel wrote:
You're pretty much going to be at the mercy of mob rolls, if anything is stoneskin chances are you're not dealing damage. My barb just farms gold and is a bo/hork bitch.

Sounds like one lame barb.
Stoneskin is not an issue, with gores, atmas, or a source of decrep - you are back in business dealing damage. There are very few truly physical immune monsters even in hell, compared to the vast numbers of fire immune baddies that cause nuissances for my sorceress.

Outside of Act end bosses (Andy, Dury, Meph, etc) my WW barb does just fine. If they have the misfortune of being undead (King Leo, Rada), it is rock on and I do great damage.

I think the boss charm problem has created a false sense of "melee sux everywhere" that quite simply isn't true.

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:10 am 

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Pretty much perfect barb save for the helm, I'm running the 85 helm. My 80 necro clears shit faster and is far more useful against bosses.

Barbs, as stated by blue, can do very well against undead bosses due to sanctuary aura(I run an azurewrath offhand).

Whatever Blue says however about melee being useful, he's merely trying to lull you into a false sense of oh I'm going to be useful past a dumpy trash killer/gold finder. It simply isn't true.

The best you'll be able to solo is sub bosses in act 2, and not even the important ones(statue).


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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:25 am 
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Angel wrote:
My 80 necro clears shit faster and is far more useful against bosses.

Poison necro?

Angel wrote:
The best you'll be able to solo is sub bosses in act 2, and not even the important ones(statue).

Even after the boss charms are fixed, melee won't be able to kill the statue due to IM. They never have been.
I fail to see why the statue is the "important" boss. I would put the bosses that drop staff pieces in a much higher position.

Sorry to hear that your barb sucks, but quite simply - mine doesnt.

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:01 am 
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[moved]

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:09 am 

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Other than the fact my barb ezpk'd statue last patch with IK(lol!)?

It's a bone necro.

The barb doesn't suck, it excels at what it's capable of doing this patch, but sugar-coating the melee problem won't help matters.


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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:19 am 
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Angel wrote:
Other than the fact my barb ezpk'd statue last patch with IK(lol!)?

Shouldn't have. That statue casts IM and is unleechable. The statue has been that way since it was introduced several ladders ago. I can still remember all the complaining posts about it as characters got 1hit KO'd by it. My guess is your dmg was high enough to simply kill the statue before it cast IM. If that is the case, you can probably do it this season too. Very little has changed about that statue.

Angel wrote:
It's a bone necro.

Good to know.

Angel wrote:
sugar-coating the melee problem won't help matters.

Falsely representing it won't help it either.

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:44 am 

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Quote:
Shouldn't have. That statue casts IM and is unleechable. The statue has been that way since it was introduced several ladders ago. I can still remember all the complaining posts about it as characters got 1hit KO'd by it. My guess is your dmg was high enough to simply kill the statue before it cast IM. If that is the case, you can probably do it this season too. Very little has changed about that statue.


I could, in the past, just clear the room and zerk it down when I was IM'd. Now it's impossible in 100x better gear.

Quote:
Good to know.


Is this some sort of sarcasm? I answered your question.

Quote:
Falsely representing it won't help it either.


I played the barb, I've tried a lot of the bosses in hell and it's pretty impossible on most of them. Where as it was the polar opposite last ladder, most of them were easy with a few exceptions.

Barbs are reduced to essentially goldfind characters, they clear trash really slow, and they can't kill most bosses in a2 and beyond without a healer.

Now, I also have a poison zon, I drop a decoy on pretty much any boss that isn't poison immune and BO it and it generally stays up for the entire fight. I throw like ~10 javs a boss and they die.


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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:50 am 
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Angel wrote:
I could, in the past, just clear the room and zerk it down when I was IM'd. Now it's impossible in 100x better gear.

What specifically has changed that prevents you from doing that now? Specifically

Angel wrote:
Quote:
Good to know.

Is this some sort of sarcasm? I answered your question.

No sarcasm at all. You answered, I replied. Not sure where the confusion is.

Angel wrote:
played the barb, I've tried a lot of the bosses in hell and it's pretty impossible on most of them. Where as it was the polar opposite last ladder, most of them were easy with a few exceptions.

It is true, barbs are difficult to play this season rather than being the cakewalk characters they were in the past. This mod was made more difficult and as such people who aren't looking for a challenge are fleeing the harder builds and going with the easy builds.

That's fine - stick with the easy builds if that is how you want to play.

Angel wrote:
Barbs are reduced to essentially goldfind characters for me because I don't want a challenge, they clear trash really slow, and they can't kill most bosses easily in a2 and beyond without a healer.

Fixed that quote for you.

Angel wrote:
Now, I also have a poison zon, I drop a decoy on pretty much any boss that isn't poison immune and BO it and it generally stays up for the entire fight. I throw like ~10 javs a boss and they die.

Sounds boring. I used to have gaming experiences like that on b.net. I got bored there and moved over to Hell Unleashed.

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:40 am 

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Quote:
What specifically has changed that prevents you from doing that now? Specifically


Lack of CB, lack of res/DR.

Quote:
It is true, barbs are difficult to play this season rather than being the cakewalk characters they were in the past. This mod was made more difficult and as such people who aren't looking for a challenge are fleeing the harder builds and going with the easy builds.

That's fine - stick with the easy builds if that is how you want to play.


Even with a 20 point amp it's impossible to kill things. There is a difference between a challenge and outright impossible.


Quote:
Sounds boring. I used to have gaming experiences like that on b.net. I got bored there and moved over to Hell Unleashed.


Sounds like farming a full inventory+cube+multiple cube drops of juvs so you can zerk a boss who you can't damage to death(and still take 2 hours doing it) is even more boring. Or, alternatively, have your friend play a healer and still run into the same boring 2 hour long boss fight problem. It's not even entertaining, you could just tape your mouse button down and afk.


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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:58 am 
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Angel wrote:
Lack of CB, lack of res/DR.

Lack of Crushing blow prevents you from clearing out a room? I don't think you are really giving this your full attention.

Mobs in A2 Hell are hitting you too hard? Even with 10k life and max resists (that's what my barb has). I am not buying it. Give me some real reasons why it is impossible to clear out the room and zerk down the statue this season. Sure it is harder, but as you yourself said it was too easy last ladder.

Give me some REAL feedback to go on.

Angel wrote:
Even with a 20 point amp it's impossible to kill things. There is a difference between a challenge and outright impossible.

With 50% Amp, barbs can kill Belial and Azmodan.
It is hard to find necro's with that sort of Amp, so I can understand that you don't realize it is possible - but it is.

Angel wrote:
Sounds like farming a full inventory+cube+multiple cube drops of juvs so you can zerk a boss who you can't damage to death(and still take 2 hours doing it) is even more boring. Or, alternatively, have your friend play a healer and still run into the same boring 2 hour long boss fight problem. It's not even entertaining, you could just tape your mouse button down and afk.

I wouldn't recommend using zerk to kill a boss or farming a full inventory/cube of juvs. 8-20 should suffice for most instances and you will need some sort of Amp if you are using physical damage.

Healers are far from necessary for well built characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:18 am 

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Are you even playing the same game?

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Mobs in A2 Hell are hitting you too hard? Even with 10k life and max resists (that's what my barb has). I am not buying it. Give me some real reasons why it is impossible to clear out the room and zerk down the statue this season. Sure it is harder, but as you yourself said it was too easy last ladder.


Go make a youtube video showcasing your leet barb clearing that room. I bet it takes 10+ minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:32 am 
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Angel wrote:
Go make a youtube video showcasing your leet barb clearing that room. I bet it takes 10+ minutes.


I'm not trying to say that killing bosses with a barb isn't severely gimped right now, but clearing a room? really? My 95 throw barb can clear tundra.. sure not FAST but he can. And he isn't even geared up well - Ourobouros on the other hand (Guardian's lvl 98) cleared shit no problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:48 am 

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Go clear that room without any help. Guarantee it takes 10+ minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:51 am 
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which room?

tundra? yes probly 10+ minutes
inner cloister? tristram? ><

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:01 pm 
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slappyNuts wrote:
which room?

The room with the Statue of Faces.

*edit*
And who would want to wade through all the champ wyrms, etc, etc just to get down to the room to make a video. screw that!
Doesn't change the fact that a barb *can* clear that room and zerk down the statue if they wanted to.

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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:12 pm 

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Can? In like what, 4 hours?


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:19 pm 
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split this off since we were invading that other dude's topic.

Sounds like the bottom line is that barbs (and other melee) are too hard to play now, so people who like an easier experience have moved away from barbs and towards the easier to play builds so they don't have to be challenged.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:35 pm 

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In my opinion 95% of melee builds are very very tedious when it comes to killing trash (and this is part of where the' "melee sucks" comes in). Obviously killing them 1 by 1 rather then say with multi-shot, teeth, fireball, whatever can get very boring and hard on the fingers heh. I'm not saying this is a fixable issue, considering it's the basic mechanics of the melee builds. The catch here in the past was if you really geared well and picked the right skills, made good use of your stat points, then you could do very well against bosses. I made a fury druid last patch and found all the goodies - eth reaver, tyreals, etc.. and he did very well against bosses. Now i'm not saying act end bosses even. Andy spams decrepify and requires sob of some sort so you lose the oak. Duriel has a nice freindly holy freeze aura along with stunning. The combination of hurricane and mephs counters sting very hard. Diablo casts im and spams his fire/lightning attacks. Don't need to say anything about baal i think. Now i could infact with amp from atmas, high fast damage from eth reaver, and some life leech, seperate and kill azmodan and belial withut using a potion. Now, however with the lowering of absorbs along with the removal of str on equipment you are at a big loss of defense against the counters and less hp to go along with it. With the lowering of cb/ds you are also dealing less damage. With the changes to amp you are dealing even less or no damage furthermore. So you basically have less hp, less abs, less/no dmg. The benefit to melee (being decent against some bosses) cause it's obviously not there trash killing prowess, seems to be pretty much gone. I mean i have like 10 characters up around 95+ now and i barely touch my holy fire paladin who has a 100k-110k zeal. Because it's near impossible to balance getting enough ar to hit act end bosses, enough absorbs to survive counters, enough hp to deal w/ melee hits and counters, enough def, and enough dmg to kill them before your pots run out. If you compare a meteor/fireball sorce to a ww barb it is night and day. Sorce is 10 times better for trash and 10 times better for bosses. And making a good sorce is about 1/10th the effort. All this imo is where the talk about'melee sucking comes from.

* the melee characters i have made so far are holy fire paladin, zeal necro, and i'm currently working on a venom barb basically yeah cause it's still fun to try to overcome all these obstacles and make a melee that is infact ok against bosses. However when i'm out for trying to get a shard or farming or helping some random group kill some random thing, i skim right by the melee.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:03 pm 
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good feedback Frank.

In a party situation, is it simply that caster damage is far out shadowing you so there is little point? Or is a melee character filling a party roll?

My meteor sorc is fairly useless solo in lots of areas due to [a] fire immunes [b] if I can't get a boss to stand still, meteor is pointless. In a team environment though, she shines.

In contrast, my WW barb can cruise pretty much anywhere he wants because he just doesn't die unless it is something really mean that comes his way. With an A3 boosted by my BO, I can run through trash very easily as well.

I will say that I think melee Paladins (and perhaps hammerdins) got hit rather hard this patch due to the strength requirements.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:13 pm 

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yeah basically casters seem to be much more effecient via trash, and via bosses they do more damage and don't require nearly as much of hp/def/abs to survive due less counters then say a zealer/frenzy/ww etc. And the majority of the counters are avoidable when using long rang attacks. So far with my melee characters on bosses even the ones that bypass (somewhat) the physical immune and can infact do some damage, still cannot survive well enough to deal the damage out. I took my holy fire paladin out to azmodan and belial a few times.. and even with a healer he was toast in a amatter of seconds. i also geared him mostly defensively. and maxed holy shield. he's using war, dscale etc. It basically seems like you have to gimp your damage down and go full tank to basically stay alive. Through equipment getting close to max absorb, full res, really high defense, enough ar to hit bosses, damage reduction, blocking% (which is all necessary not to be ripped up from act bosses), and enough damage to basically not be considered a tank is nearly impossible.

Good point about the act 3 merc though lol i should use more of them. Plug a beast sword on them i suppose if i really need the fanat , thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:06 pm 
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what sort of life is that paladin hitting?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:36 pm 

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Frank wrote:
yeah basically casters seem to be much more effecient via trash, and via bosses they do more damage and don't require nearly as much of hp/def/abs to survive due less counters then say a zealer/frenzy/ww etc. And the majority of the counters are avoidable when using long rang attacks. So far with my melee characters on bosses even the ones that bypass (somewhat) the physical immune and can infact do some damage, still cannot survive well enough to deal the damage out. I took my holy fire paladin out to azmodan and belial a few times.. and even with a healer he was toast in a amatter of seconds. i also geared him mostly defensively. and maxed holy shield. he's using war, dscale etc. It basically seems like you have to gimp your damage down and go full tank to basically stay alive. Through equipment getting close to max absorb, full res, really high defense, enough ar to hit bosses, damage reduction, blocking% (which is all necessary not to be ripped up from act bosses), and enough damage to basically not be considered a tank is nearly impossible.

Good point about the act 3 merc though lol i should use more of them. Plug a beast sword on them i suppose if i really need the fanat , thanks.

*beast giant thresher's ft ; ; whisper pinkfranklin lol*

um caster causing less counters is kinda where i stopped if ur caster isnt casue mass counter then ur fcr suck ass and its a wonder u can kill with it as to the rest i dont agree with the way we be handicapped on melee chars but its clear we arent going back or fixing it so get use to it and grow a set
and no i dont agree with blue just tired of this topic


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 Post subject: Re: Frenzy Barb
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:04 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Sorry to hear that your barb sucks, but quite simply - mine doesnt.


What has your barbarian actually done outside of WW trash Blue? Do you have any feedback for any actual Hell bosses you've done?

blue_myriddn wrote:
With 50% Amp, barbs can kill Belial and Azmodan.
It is hard to find necro's with that sort of Amp, so I can understand that you don't realize it is possible - but it is.


I can tell you have actually haven't done this Blue. WW'ing bosses that cast Moncurse is an awesome way to die. So you're left with Concentrate if you don't want to run back (or see the deedz screen). Concentrate's damage is pretty much crap (10fpa attack ftw) so be prepared to be there for quite a long time.
This is all while gimping your party by using Amplify Damage over Lower Resist so you can actual deal damage... You're probably hurting your party more than helping.
How do I know this? Because I've actually ran A&B in a balanced party as a melee character (Sum. Nec, Fstorm Druid, Dclaw Sin). Allowing my Assassin to do damage with Amplify Damage wasn't worth it compared to the damage Lee's Firestorm druid did with Lower Resist. (OSkill FireMastery ftw)
And before you say "Well obviously your Sin sucks", I was easily hitting 50k average damage at 5 FPA with curse immunity. I'd like to see a Barbarian Concentrate for more, not including the damage he loses by waiting out IM.
Possible? Yes (I've done it). Worth it? Not by a long shot, especially when an elemental character with half my gear can do it 3x+ faster.

blue_myriddn wrote:
My meteor sorc is fairly useless solo in lots of areas due to [a] fire immunes [b] if I can't get a boss to stand still, meteor is pointless. In a team environment though, she shines.
In contrast, my WW barb can cruise pretty much anywhere he wants because he just doesn't die unless it is something really mean that comes his way. With an A3 boosted by my BO, I can run through trash very easily as well.


If your Fireball sorceress is clearing areas WORSE than your Barbarian, you must have a pretty crappy sorceress.
Being bad at a Sorceress doesn't equate to melee being good at clearing areas, because they aren't. The only time I would even consider clearing an area with a melee over a Sorceress is in HC. Even then, there are a plethora of builds that will solo areas easier (and 5x faster) than a melee could ever hope to.


inb4 "Too afraid to face a real challenging mod? Need to hide behind your poison builds?"

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:10 am 

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Depends what "hard to play" refers to. Vs act bosses? Yes, vs trash/sub bosses? na.

Only problem is phys damage; from what i've seen, the only "melee" classes that even somewhat shine, are the 1s that resort to using elemental damage.. such as venom builds, pally's with a holy X (x referring to fire frost or lightning), build, etc. Wanna save your self a head-ache? don't make any pure phys chars.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:56 pm 

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Quote:
um caster causing less counters is kinda where i stopped if ur caster isnt casue mass counter then ur fcr suck ass and its a wonder u can kill with it as to the rest i dont agree with the way we be handicapped on melee chars but its clear we arent going back or fixing it so get use to it and grow a set
and no i dont agree with blue just tired of this topic


Blaze is no counters. Meteor is like 1 counter every hit, which is every 2 seconds? MOAR FCR MEANS FASTER RITE? Jav you throw until you hit with a melee attack and then wait until it goes down. These are the three best boss killers in the game, they throw off barely any counters.

Melee, let's take for example a WW barb, has 4fpa with both weapons, equating out to 2 fpa. That's 12.5 counters a second.

Quote:
My meteor sorc is fairly useless solo in lots of areas due to [a] fire immunes [b] if I can't get a boss to stand still, meteor is pointless. In a team environment though, she shines.
In contrast, my WW barb can cruise pretty much anywhere he wants because he just doesn't die unless it is something really mean that comes his way. With an A3 boosted by my BO, I can run through trash very easily as well.


What do mercs do? What does juggling a boss in a fire patch with teleport do? You're clearly just completely inexperienced with a meteor sorc, which essentially causes your opinion to be skewed. A WW barb is pretty straightforward and retard proof while most casters require a bit of finesse.

Quote:
With 50% Amp, barbs can kill Belial and Azmodan.
It is hard to find necro's with that sort of Amp, so I can understand that you don't realize it is possible - but it is.

Quote:
Possible? Yes (I've done it). Worth it? Not by a long shot, especially when an elemental character with half my gear can do it 3x+ faster.

3x faster is an understatement, try 30x faster. Poison zon kills both(without any curse) in ~20 seconds each.

Quote:
Depends what "hard to play" refers to. Vs act bosses? Yes, vs trash/sub bosses? na.

Only problem is phys damage; from what i've seen, the only "melee" classes that even somewhat shine, are the 1s that resort to using elemental damage.. such as venom builds, pally's with a holy X (x referring to fire frost or lightning), build, etc. Wanna save your self a head-ache? don't make any pure phys chars.


I didn't actually post this, apparently he felt the need to try and berate me or something. Melee characters are easier to play than other classes in the game. The point is the patch completely wrecked their viability, when you choose to play a melee character it's like choosing to type on a keyboard with your elbows. It's not efficient, it doesn't work, and there's no reason to try it when you have fingers.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
What has your barbarian actually done outside of WW trash Blue? Do you have any feedback for any actual Hell bosses you've done?
You do know all hell act bosses are physically immune because of the boss charms. No really go here and look: http://blue.arimyth.com/BossResists.html

The regulars to the forums all know. For a while now actually. :roll: I see you here all the time and you don't know? Are you trolling again?


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:18 am 
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He has been a wonderful character for bosses. With high life, solid resists and a life buff to share he is a welcome addition everywhere.

Act End bosses
Andy and Dury were tanked easily with only a few juvs spent here and there. Clearly I couldn't do dmg to either, so I went in to tank mode. Mephisto was tough, he hit me with a lot of damage. I was with a strong party though, so that managed to be ok. I was useful though when the whole party died (except me, due to..well.. being a barb). I could hit and run him and keep him from healing until the rest of the party showed up. Similar story for Diablo, since I couldn't do dmg I fired up an oak sage from a wisp and kept it BO'd for a mass life boost for the party. Every now and then I would run over and poke Diablo to hopefully get him to look at me. Didn't take much dmg from his attacks, they were easy to avoid or simply didn't do much. I gave away all my juvs to the rest of the party. Blade of Arreat was also something I used at both Meph & Diablo extensively to ensure hits by the party. Haven't faced Hell Baal yet.

Sub-bosses
King Leo is like a school kid. I beat him up all the time and steal his lunch money.
Radament was easy too - just tossed on holy armor and WW'd back and forth until he died. Poison was a nuisance now and then, but that is what antidotes are for. Similar story for Griswold, although I was using dracs back then, so every now and then I would switch to BK set, frenzy him a few times to proc life tap, and then go back to WW. Was a little tricky to keep out of the path of the hammers while using WW, but I attribute that more to my lack of finesse at controlling the barb than anything else. Never did get around to killing Blood Raven or the Countess. I went down to the smith with a horrible party and watched them try to kill him. Since he is phys immune I stuck with keeping my merc alive.
Toby hopped around too much for me to do a lot and his Iron Maiden almost got me. I ended up not doing a lot there and letting the party do the bulk of the work.
Summoner was uneventful. I didn't do much as there was a sorceress or something and I didn't want to get people killed with counters. I actually don't remember too much about that battle to be honest. Can't remember if I actually did Hell Maggot queen or if the party already had the staff. I know that I never got over to Jugger, but I am also pretty sure he would beat me around as he hits like a truck. Maybe I did kill him, really not sure and could be confusing NM & Hell.
Council was pretty easy for me. There was a psn zon with us I think, but she would insta-die every 2 minutes, so that was useless. A fire sorc was a little bit more productive if I recall. With bash and leap attack, I focused on corralling them in corners and keeping them from teaming up. Blizzards hurt. Poison was negligible with Spirit of Barbs from MetalGrid (compliments of King Leo). Didn't bother with Fire or Lightning. Last guy wasn't very memorable either. Mithria wasn't exciting either. I don't think I did much to her, but she didn't do much to me either, so it was sort of a draw.
Izual was boring - I mostly stood there and did nothing.
Seal bosses were straight forward other than Moloch. I hung back and kept SOB alive and BO'd. I didn't do a lot of attacking because of boss immunity and people were casting LR rather than Amp. So I yelled at the bosses a lot and tried to get them to look at me rather than the puny casters.

So I'd say this guy is a wonderful success at bosses. There have been a few duds in the battle, but all around I've made things significantly easier for the party. For a team mod, this guy is an outstanding team mate.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:24 am 
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Trafalgar wrote:
You do know all hell act bosses are physically immune because of the boss charms. No really go here and look: http://blue.arimyth.com/BossResists.html

The regulars to the forums all know. For a while now actually. :roll: I see you here all the time and you don't know? Are you trolling again?


You do know that Amplify Damage can pierce bosses down to a rate where you can actually damage them... right?

I did Hell Andariel with a pure physical character as MVP (read: only damage dealer) no problem with maximum Amplify Damage. I could probably do Mephisto & Diablo as well, but the amount of time and juvs it would take is impractical when there are builds that will do it 10x faster with half the gear my Sin had.
And considering most melee (read: Non-CI) characters can't stick to any of the harder hell bosses due to Moncurse... It's not just the Amplify Damage nerf that is holding melee viability in Hell back.

But hell, what do I know? I've only played through the entire game (save post-game content) with a melee character twice this ladder. I must be trolling when you jump in with your inaccurate theory-craft. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:52 am 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Block o' text


Your entire essay pretty much summed up everything that's wrong with a melee character, and what I've been saying from the beginning of this patch.
All melee now does is stand in front of a boss, doing absolutely nothing.

Seriously, go and reread what you just wrote and look at the instances where you actually damage something.
Let me make it easy for you:
The only time your Barbarian performed damage to a boss was when he was A) Undead and B) Didn't cast Moncurse
From my count, that's three instances (Leo, Rada, Griswald), otherwise you were a glorified Decoy.
Does that sound like an effective character to you? Being able to preform damage in 3 out of the 10+ boss fights you recalled?
Melee aren't utility characters, and even if they were, every melee that provides utility is vastly outclassed by utility caster counterpart. (IE: Firestorm Druid > Fury Druid by leagues no man could cross)

blue_myriddn wrote:
So I'd say this guy is a wonderful success at bosses. There have been a few duds in the battle, but all around I've made things significantly easier for the party. For a team mod, this guy is an outstanding team mate.


A character that is utterly replaced by
A) A Bobitch
B) Recastable Summons
is a wonderful character? Your character brings nothing (unless you count Hork) to the party that BO or recastable summons don't. Your ENTIRE character can be replaced by Oskills or recastable summons.
I'm hard-pressed to think of pretty much any build that is so easily replaced.

Yet you still think he's an effective, balanced character. Well, at least I know what kind of logic is working behind this patch...

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:42 am 

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Glorified decoy? More like a nerfed decoy that requires pots.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:03 am 
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Angel wrote:
Glorified decoy? More like a nerfed decoy that requires pots.

I have yet to be in a game where decoy works anywhere near as well as my barb. In most instances it turns in to everyone running around like crazy when there isn't a fixed tank there (such as when I am playing with my sorc rather than barb).

Glad it is working out for you and others, but I don't think that it is the case for the bulk of the players.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:32 pm 
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I've kept my thoughts to myself on this issue due to the fact that there have been enough voices to put forth their arguments on the issue...but here are my thoughts. shortened due to time...

1) it is unfortunate that nobody recognized the hidden boss charms effects after the changes in this patch...it happened...so be it

2) melee should not be glorified decoys (or nerfed ones) on bosses. (and blue, i disagree with your sentiments about others preferring a melee bo/sage bitch to a decoy...many i run in to LOVE decoy, and hate melee members).

3) Melee's needed to be toned back a bit from previous versions...but not obliterated.

Please stop arguing from the point of view that all is fine...it obviously is not...though i do understand that somebody should play the role of devil's advocate...just not to the degree that they actually become that advocate.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:41 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
Please stop arguing from the point of view that all is fine...it obviously is not...though i do understand that somebody should play the role of devil's advocate...just not to the degree that they actually become that advocate.

I am most certainly not arguing from the point that all is fine. Not sure why anyone would think that when I have made clear posts such as this:

Quote:
I think it is clear that melee characters face difficulties starting in mid to late nightmare that get progressively worse as Hell looms before them. Some of these difficulties are intentional from the patch to encourage team play, while some of them were unforeseen. Most notable is the hidden physical immunity of most every Hell boss in the game (see note below for full detail

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3032

It is also why I recommend shortening the standard 1 year reset to a 1/2 year reset instead to address these issues.

Make no mistake, I feel that melee characters are overly hampered in this patch due to the extreme lowering of Amp damage. Paladins also seemed to receive a tough blow this patch with the strength adjustments. I also feel that casters got off light handed due to the massive whining over removing skill charms that would supposedly break casters. Furthermore, I am surprised that there wasn't a more substantial reduction in psn skills proposed by the community.

I do disagree that a decoy is in any way shape or form more useful than a barbarian and highly encourage people to find me on the realm and demonstrate this to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:55 pm 

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Taking rough numbers from the zon I play with and have played.
3k base life
63% BO(cta)=4,890
110% Oak(druid)=8,190

Now you cast decoy
460%=45,864
63% bo=74,758
110% Oak=125,208 life

Gains the mods of the boss which can make it immune to things or highly resistant to things.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:44 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I am most certainly not arguing from the point that all is fine. Not sure why anyone would think that when I have made clear posts such as this:


I know where you began, and was content to see that view. However, with the shift the discussion of the barb, it seemed kinda hunky-doryish ya know?

I also understand that having to be reasonable is a difficult task when you are being berated from all sides. It's why I kept my thoughts quiet for some time. The last few posts were a bit hard to swallow, though.

I think that at least some progress has been made on the issue, albeit slower than some would like. I do wish that instead of focusing on being miffed, or having to defend that melee can be useful in some cases, we really need to figure out they way to bring melee characters to a reasonable state.

-boss charm - leave it be or not
-amp/lower res - back to previous, somewhere in between, or leave it be
-strength - give a bit more or leave as is
-CB/DS - more on one-handers, more in general, leave as is
-absorbs/DR available to melee - same things

We need to try to come to a consensus on these, and others if I left something out.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:22 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
I am most certainly not arguing from the point that all is fine. Not sure why anyone would think that when I have made clear posts such as this:
Lack of respect for the development and implementation process. They don't comprehend the negative effect of constantly implementing small fixes/changes. I've had to add a few to my foe list just so I don't waste my time reading the same complaints in every thread in which they post.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:35 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
I think that at least some progress has been made on the issue, albeit slower than some would like. I do wish that instead of focusing on being miffed, or having to defend that melee can be useful in some cases, we really need to figure out they way to bring melee characters to a reasonable state.

-boss charm - leave it be or not
-amp/lower res - back to previous, somewhere in between, or leave it be
-strength - give a bit more or leave as is
-CB/DS - more on one-handers, more in general, leave as is
-absorbs/DR available to melee - same things

We need to try to come to a consensus on these, and others if I left something out.


The one big issue that is being ignored in favor of the Amplify Damage curse is Iron Maiden.This issue isn't brought up that much, considering we can hardly damage a boss as it is.
But even if we could, without the option of a low-damage high CB weapon, melee are basically screwed against every Moncurse boss in the game, which the majority of harder bosses are. If you're caught mid-WW, mid-Zeal, mid-Fury, you're instant dead (on WW & Fury especially, huge damage).
So even if a pure physical melee character can deal decent damage, they're utterly stumped when faced with IM now, unlike last patch when every melee had a way to deal with it, not just a CI Assassin.

I can guarantee even if Amplify Damage is fixed, melee viability will still suffer in Hell. This of course has to do with what you've stated, melee should have been toned down, not obliterated. They were nerfed from every possible angle this patch, when they were still outclassed by poison builds in their previous state.

And don't get the wrong idea, melee discussions started somewhat civil (I should know, I made the first topic about them), but after awhile when all of your valid points are ignored by the power in charge or you're constantly told to "do it yourself" or "wait how things play out", your patience with someone steadily who you know is wrong steadily declines. If Blue would actually give someone an inch who disagrees with him, instead of becoming extremely defensive and arguing for the sole sake of his patch, he wouldn't get so much hate thrown at him.


Trafalgar wrote:
Lack of respect for the development and implementation process. They don't comprehend the negative effect of constantly implementing small fixes/changes. I've had to add a few to my foe list just so I don't waste my time reading the same complaints in every thread in which they post.


Luckily, we comprehend the negative effects of blindly changing things in the mod based upon theory craft. This patch wouldn't be such a mess if a lighter hand was taken instead of fully obliterating things with no foresight or no real knowledge of how it will effect the mod.
What it comes down to is: What Blue thinks his changes will do and what they actually did are two entirely different things.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Trafalgar wrote:
Lack of respect for the development and implementation process. They don't comprehend the negative effect of constantly implementing small fixes/changes. I've had to add a few to my foe list just so I don't waste my time reading the same complaints in every thread in which they post.


Don't put words into my mouth please. And if you cared to look, I was invited to that neck of the woods. The group was well aware that I would keep myself to a limited roll (decent knowledge of how text files work, and a voice for the more casual though nonpussified players).

If this one statement, that was somewhat rushed made you add me to the foes list...then ty...i won't have to deal with you later when something important arises.

Off to work to make people suffer for making me work on my bday.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:14 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
Off to work to make people suffer for making me work on my bday.

Happy birthday!

Sorry if I am overly positive about my barb, but honestly I *love* playing this character and I feel he is enormously useful in parties. Granted I have been playing with the more run of the mill folks (I tend to stick to pubby games and not just rush to Tundra and crazy lvl), which tends to have a more party friendly aspect to them than the power players (such as Angel), but since that is more in line with Soulmancer's vision, I believe that is the right place to hang to get solid feedback.

If boss resists were simply lowered a bit to find the middle ground between previous season's powerhouse and this seasons no dmg, I'd be 100% happy. I also think that crushing blow should be brought back up to the 5% range - I never was a huge fan of that adjustment (as indicated by my not implementing the originally voted version of 1% CB as a max and removing it from Ber rune).

Melee paladins are a totally different story, but that's another topic.

As for the 125k life decoy - I'd like to see that in game. My take on decoy was that it had an infinite life simply because you could recast it before most things could really kill it, but it is a different dynamic if you can cast it and let it sit there taking up all the hits and not have to cast it again for a long time. Granted, 125k life doesn't sound as nice once you add in the 8x bonus bosses get towards summons (or is it 16x in this mod?) and I have no idea if the resist boost of decoys takes in to account the hell resist penalty or not (I don't think it does).

Either way though - hit me up on the realm and lets see what decoys can do. I'd certainly love to see how it happens. In my partying experience though, decoys have been "meh" and actual player tanks have made a much bigger impact.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:50 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
If boss resists were simply lowered a bit to find the middle ground between previous season's powerhouse and this seasons no dmg, I'd be 100% happy. I also think that crushing blow should be brought back up to the 5% range - I never was a huge fan of that adjustment (as indicated by my not implementing the originally voted version of 1% CB as a max and removing it from Ber rune).


And this is why it terrifies me to think about subsequent balancing patches.

If you think that only lowering physical resists (and not even to their previous values) will fix all melee viability problems... Well I'm sorry to say, but you just have absolutely no idea what you're doing in terms of balancing this mod.
That's not even me taking a jab at you, its just becoming clear you're in way over your head and with a mentality like that I doubt this mod will see the balance it had last patch in years if not ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:06 pm 
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Abominae wrote:
blah, blah, blah

Talk is cheap. Everyone thinks they can do this and that and talks about how much more they know, but they end up actually trying to DO what they talk about, its a whole different ballgame.

As I am sure I have said to you before - dazzle us with your masterful balance in a new patch. Build it, assemble it and present it. I honestly think it would be cool to have competing patches every now and then, so I am 100% serious. Granted you will need to get Soulmancer's thumbs up on it as it is his call and not mine, but I am sure with your wonderful abundance of knowledge, the brilliance of your suggestions will be immediately clear and he (and the rest of the community) will gather around and sing your praises and instantly give you the big thumbs up.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:18 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Talk is cheap. Everyone thinks they can do this and that and talks about how much more they know, but they end up actually trying to DO what they talk about, its a whole different ballgame.

As I am sure I have said to you before - dazzle us with your masterful balance in a new patch. Build it, assemble it and present it. I honestly think it would be cool to have competing patches every now and then, so I am 100% serious. Granted you will need to get Soulmancer's thumbs up on it as it is his call and not mine, but I am sure with your wonderful abundance of knowledge, the brilliance of your suggestions will be immediately clear and he (and the rest of the community) will gather around and sing your praises and instantly give you the big thumbs up.


Challenge accepted. The patch I choose? Last patch. We now have a far superior balanced mod on our hands. If you're 100% serious, that's the patch I choose to compete with yours.

But Blue's famous "Do it yourself" line aside, my ability to balance a mod isn't in question. Yours is. Why is this? Because I'm not the once balancing the mod, nor am I in charge of subsequent balancing patches.
All you're doing is using the "Do it yourself" argument as a scapegoat to evade the fact you're in over your head and your patch came out badly. I mean, I know it sucks to put a bunch of work into something and not get the results you would have liked, but that's life. Deal with it.
The very fact you think this patch retains better balance than last patch shows you're not ready for this. You're juggling too much, and you bit off far more than you can chew. There's no shame in admitting you're wrong, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Basically, I'm just trying to not see one of my favorite games head straight to the shitter because of one man's foolhardy pride and unwarranted sense of superiority.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:38 pm 
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You all must have had one perfectly golden patch encompassed by a choir of angels before this ladder.. or just forgotten how much better HU still is than b.net. Regardless of the fact that melee can't kill Hell act bosses on its own, and is dangerously less powerful than other builds, HU is still really fun and I enjoy it a lot. Perhaps you guys do too since you play it? Or maybe you spend all your time on the forum bitching. Nothing will ever be perfect, and having a shitty attitude and not being able to provide feedback in a productive manner will not get us anywhere. It will just fluster people, and probably turn blue vindictive and he will be less inclined to want to do ANY further work toward balancing something for a bunch of ingrate assholes.

maybe i am wasting my breath even saying this, but what inconsiderate jerks you all are bitching at blue for going and trying something useful. The ones who contribute the least sure seem to complain the most... And there is a thread specifically for bantering Blue's ability to balance? That's quite sad IMO since I don't see any other people writing up code (well the people that are haven't been the ones complaining as far as I've seen/heard)

Not even trying to be a 'yes-man' here for Blue or try to say he did or didn't do a good job balancing, I'm just sick of you morons constantly bashing something you couldn't raise a finger to

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:25 pm 

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I didnt play last season so I dont really know how it was, it does sound like melee was really good, so good that the overcompensated nerf was way to hard.
I dont know if this is true but its what it sounds like by you guys' bitching...

Is it entirely impossible to get a compromise where melee does some damage and not insanly a lot?

Or is it crushing blow that makes it so imbalanced and hard to balance around? if so fucking remove the stat, its not like its on EVERY item out there anyway...

And btw if you guys are talking balance, having one damage dealing type do zero damage in hell is not balanced... though I do find that a very interesting design choice.


Also I would like to point out that this mod is fucking awesome!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:53 pm 
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slappyNuts wrote:
Nothing will ever be perfect, and having a shitty attitude and not being able to provide feedback in a productive manner will not get us anywhere. It will just fluster people, and probably turn blue vindictive and he will be less inclined to want to do ANY further work toward balancing something for a bunch of ingrate assholes.


Any productive feedback (that doesn't agree with Blue) has already been flat out ignored, and not just my posts. People who are much better and more respected in the community have tried give feedback and coerce Blue to no avail.
I'm personally at the point where I'd be glad if he's less inclined to do any further work because I'd hate to see the mod mutilated further than it already has been.

slappyNuts wrote:
maybe i am wasting my breath even saying this, but what inconsiderate jerks you all are bitching at blue for going and trying something useful. The ones who contribute the least sure seem to complain the most... And there is a thread specifically for bantering Blue's ability to balance? That's quite sad IMO since I don't see any other people writing up code (well the people that are haven't been the ones complaining as far as I've seen/heard)


So we're inconsiderate because we don't 100% agree with Blue and what he's done to the mod? Speaking for solely myself, all niceties are long forgotten after attempting numerous times to give him feedback.
What we're left with is someone who has his own vision for the mod, right or wrong, he refuses to to see any opinion that will disagree with his own. I've tried myself numerous times to point out to Blue what's wrong with his patch. Why should I show courtesy to one who doesn't a) return it and b) even take into consideration your feedback. Do tell me that.

slappyNuts wrote:
Not even trying to be a 'yes-man' here for Blue or try to say he did or didn't do a good job balancing, I'm just sick of you morons constantly bashing something you couldn't raise a finger to


I'm quite glad that a "moron" such as myself couldn't raise a finger to do what this patch has done. I'd be thoroughly embarrassed if I did.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:53 pm 
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kramuti wrote:
Don't put words into my mouth please. And if you cared to look, I was invited to that neck of the woods. The group was well aware that I would keep myself to a limited roll (decent knowledge of how text files work, and a voice for the more casual though nonpussified players).

If this one statement, that was somewhat rushed made you add me to the foes list...then ty...i won't have to deal with you later when something important arises.

Off to work to make people suffer for making me work on my bday.

Unless you post the same complaints in every thread then I wasn't referring to you. I quote people to respond to them so don't take my coincidentally sequential post personal. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:15 pm 
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Verb wrote:
Is it entirely impossible to get a compromise where melee does some damage and not insanly a lot?

Ya, I think that is doable - just tricky. Right now it is definitely lopsided towards the suck side, which is a shame. It is even more visible because Lower Resist is the de facto curse now a days. In previous patches it was ALWAYS amp, amp, amp. Was kind of frustrating to play an elemental character because you could never see that pretty Lower Resist curse. Now of course the tables have swapped and you are seeing nothing but LR.

The swing in curse preference makes a very large impact.

Verb wrote:
having one damage dealing type do zero damage in hell is not balanced... though I do find that a very interesting design choice.

Trust me, it wasn't by choice. I think that the people suggesting the amp reduction simply didn't realize just how much of an impact it was going to have.

Verb wrote:
Also I would like to point out that this mod is fucking awesome!!!
I think most everyone agrees on that, I know I do :)

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:12 pm 
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Trafalgar: you quoted blue's quote that I stated...therefore it seemed that your comments were directed towards me. If not, okey dokey. If so, then so be it.

To those that think that blue has not taken anything into consideration, I beg to differ. That is why on pg1 of a balancing thread he stated his views, which seemed pretty reasonable. Nothing is going to change overnight, though some issues should be resolved in subsequent patches. A major issue arose due to very few, if anybody, understanding the total and complete ramifications of the changes made. The intentions were correct. An oversight was made that we have to live with for awhile.

As I suggested earlier, rather than the incessant moaning (which leads to blue having to defend at some level, the state of the patch) we really need to start really discussing, and hashing out how the melee issue should be resolved.

It isn't simple. It will take a good, thorough, and well thought out plan to 'properly' balance this issue...so again...what specifically do people argue to change? str. absorb/DR/res, CB/DS, etc?

And thanks blue for the happy bday. It was a good day. Had some good talks with family and friends, had (more than) a few drinks courtesy of my friends, and the bartender, made students suffer for making me show up by giving them an exam, and have tomorrow off since I only have to teach M-R.

And, yes...this mod is still darn spiffy, despite a few issues.

edit: socks

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:56 am 
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kramuti wrote:
It isn't simple. It will take a good, thorough, and well thought out plan to 'properly' balance this issue...so again...what specifically do people argue to change? str. absorb/DR/res, CB/DS, etc?



Strength Changes: It's been stated before that the strength changes effect melee much harder than they do casters. This is obvious, because the majority of casters need a strength of 108 at the most. On the other hand, melee builds (especially two-handed), need an upward of ~150-250 strength. (Tmaul setting the cap at 253 strength required).
If you compare the items from last patch, you'll notice a trend in +Strength gear. The majority of gear that gave lots of +strength was melee gear. If you further compare the changes, you'll see that a ton of them went from a strong chunk of strength to absolutely zero. It's sad when level 40 items provide more stats than a level 90 item.
EX: Windhammer used to have 100 Strength, it now provides 0. War Travelers 20 > 0. Worldstone Granite 20 > 0.

Suggested change: At least meet melee gear half-way with this. Considering they need upwards of 150% more strength than a caster, their gear should compensate some for that (which it did in the previous patch). If Worldstone gave 10 strength, would that be so bad? Even 50 strength on Windhammer wouldn't be anything close to unbalanced, it would already take 200+ strength to wield it.
Basically what I suggest is a middle ground instead of X Str > 0 Str. It would let later melee gear compare to crafts, because as it is now, crafts for the stat boosts alone are normally the better option.
Something like 50% Strength would be much more reasonable than 0%.


Absorb Changes:These I can't really complain about too much, outside of they half-way took the absorb mechanic out of the game. It's rarely worth it to gimp your gear by stacking 3-4 absorb items to hit 20%+ absorbs.
Absorbs are the definition of a luxury stat and aren't required for any non-post game boss fight. I'd like to see them higher (10% on Dscale, 10% on Dwarf/Raven/Shock) just so it's actually worth it to equip them, but it's not a huge issue that's breaking melee's balls.

Suggested change: Either a slight increase (10% is still a whopping half of their original values) or none at all. Like I said, it's primarily a luxury stat that won't make or break your character or given boss fight.
Also increase Uber Gems to 8% Absorb (66% of original value) to increase incentive to actually gear for absorbs.


%Damage Reduction Changes: Damage Reduction is now harder to obtain, but I believe this was a goal in mind for the patch. These are again, nerfs you can live with, but still hurt the build overall. I'd like to see them increased slightly, but mainly for the socketable options. It was nice to have the ability to socket for DR, but with Ber giving 5% DR (expensive) and Skulls giving 5% (41% of what they used to) it's hardly worth it.

Suggested change:
Increase Uber Skulls to 8% Damage Reduction (66% of what they were last patch)
Increase Ber runes to 7% Damage Reduction (70% of what they were last patch)
Increase Shaftstop to 20% (or 25%) Damage Reduction (66-83% of what it was last patch. Note this armor also offers NO resistance and I can hardly see why it would be unbalanced to give it strong DR values in comparison)
Increase Executioner's Justice to at least 5%, if not restore the full 10%.
A possible 1-2% increase on some of the end-game items (CoA, Rends, Dancers, WG) just to increase the incentive of stacking them and also have them comparable to Blood Helm/Glove craft.


Resist Changes: This really hurt two-handed builds, especially those who don't get free resists like the Barbarian or Assassin. There are a plethora of items that got hit by it, but in my suggested changes I'll cover the main ones that make me rage.
Otherwise, any Shield bearing melee class wasn't hit too hard by the resist changes. The biggest gripe is that it's very annoying to have to focus your sockets and charms to res until 95+.

Suggested Changes:
Um Rune - Increase to +15/20 Resist All from +6/12 (Armor/Shield). 6/12 is a pathetic number that doesn't even outclass bad Resist All jewels. At least with these values they're comparable to resist all jewels while still not being as strong as they formerly were.
Glass Glare - Increase the Resists to 30% (it used to be 50%). This has always been primarily a defensive armor, and should reflect that. It also creates an in-between as most armors before that will offer 20% Res all, then later will pop up to 40%-50% resist all.
Level 90 2h Uniques - Fully restore the resist values on these items (50% on Exec Justice, Windhammer, Tomb, 30% on Steelpillar). You need these resists as a 2h build. This has also been discussed more than once, so I'll leave it at that.
Uber Diamond - Increase to 20 if not 25. 15% Resist all is pathetic from an Uber Diamond and is outclassed by a resist all jewel. I'm wasting a socket that could go to more block, absorbs, stats, pierce, or DR, so at least compensate for that.


Deadly Strike Changes: These definitely hurt the pure physical portion of melee damage, and lowered their damage overall. This is another place you see huge values torn entirely to 0. An example are the level 90 unique weapons, where you see 50% Deadly Strike completely slashed to 0%.
The lack of Deadly Strike is especially apparent on classes who have no innate Critical Strike (Druid, Paladin) and in some cases can lower their damage to half of what they would be doing last patch.
Again, I'd love to see some actual middle ground in these changes, even though I don't agree with ANY Deadly Strike nerf at all. Going from 50 > 0 is ridiculous, but 50% > 25% isn't the worse thing in the world.

Suggested Changes:
Change the values at least half of what they were last patch, if not 2/3 in some cases. Some examples (not all) would be:
Gore Riders - Increase Deadly Strike from 5% to 15%-20% (50%-66% of last patch's values respectively)
Tomb Reaver - 25%-35%, whichever value is deemed appropriate.
Steelrend - These I would love to see at 20% if not their original 25% value. They're the highest level gloves in the game FFS, they should be treated as such.

This would still make high Deadly Strike harder to obtain and still gives the edge to those who have innate Critical Strike. At the same time though, it doesn't severely gimp their damage versus a build that has innate Critical Strike. It also allows you to gear for critical strike without piecing together gimped gear by gimped gear.


Crushing Blow Changes: This is where we start talking about melee viability instead of melee effectiveness. And this point of crushing blow hasn't been covered nearly as much as it should be.
Iron Maiden destroys any melee character it touches. It's pretty much their kryponite if you will. Before, against bosses who cast Moncurse, every melee had the option to use low damage and Crushing Blow to overcome this challenge.
Now you are left with one option, Curse Immunity. However, Curse Immunity is available to ONE class throughout levels 1-90, which is the Assassin. No other melee build has any way to effectively deal with Iron Maiden through out the game. This is obviously a terrible problem, and if only physical resists are fixed will become incredibly prevalent.
I'm not asking to return 30% Crushing Blow values, but I am asking to give melee enough to have means of countering Moncurse bosses (read: The majority of harder bosses in the game).
This is one of the two major things that will hold melee back from being more than a gimmick build, and it absolutely has to be remedied.

Suggested Changes: Allow melee (1h or 2h) to obtain ~10-15% Crushing Blow. There are a plethora of ways to do this, but what is suggest is to take the items that previously gave 5% CB (Rends, Gob Toe, Gores, Guillaumme's) and give them 3% CB.
This would allow any melee build to piece together CB 3% at a time resulting in around 6-9% late game (12% if you gimp yourself with Rattlecage or Duress) from off-weapon gear.
If you retain the current values of CB on weapons and Ber, the highest CB you could obtain is 17%. (3% Gores, 3% Rends, 3% Guillaumme's, 5% 5Ber Gris Caddy, 3% Duress). This is obviously gimping both your helm & armor slot, so it's more reasonable to assume an 11% range.

This is obviously a far cry from the 30% CB you could rock last patch. It doesn't even compare to the 20% you could EASILY obtain. But what it does is give melee an effective way to deal with Iron Maiden instead of just sitting out 1/2 of the boss fights in the game.
I can't stress enough how important it is that CB is restored to a noticeable value, unless for some reason you want to make Curse Immunity incredibly easy to obtain. Otherwise, melee viability WILL suffer tremendously.


Amplify Damage Changes: This has obviously been discussed the most. I'm still in favor of returning Amplify Damage values to their original state, as it will solve the problem much easier than re-balancing EVERY boss's physical resistance.
But then again, I also stand firm on the belief that hard-point curses are a terrible idea and only limit the Necro's usefulness and make partying for a team mod more frustrating.

Suggested Changes: Either return Amplify Damage to it's original state (doubtful) or change the progression. Such as:
1 pointed (on a Necro w/ +skills): ~50% physical pierce
CTC Amplify Items: ~40-45% physical pierce (whatever ctc 5 amp was last patch)
Maxed Amplify Damage: ~75% physical pierce

Again, this is a nice middle ground from the ~90% you could obtain last patch and the horrendous 55% you have now. It would fix all physical resist issues, as well as bringing their reliance on a maxed Amplify Damage necromancer down tremendously. I don't see why physical resists should be tweaked so heavily when there is such an easy fix based upon last patch's Amp values.



TL;DR:Anyway, that's my two cents that will be subsequently ignored. If you actually read my post, you'll see that although I disagree with most of the melee nerfs, I'm willing to swallow my pride and try to come to a middle ground.
Most of the suggestions I've made are approximately in the middle of the values from this patch to last patch. In my opinion and knowledge, this would bring melee from completely obliterated to simply toned down (even though... they weren't this super hero people seem to think).

Also, if anyone wants to dispute what I've said, feel free. I have no problem defending my suggested changes against anyone's criticism or differing opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:18 pm 

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eh my paladin has 7k hp. (w/ self bo)
I put most of what i could into vit considering str for eq, dex for blocking. he has a war on and 4 uber rubies into my helm. And a handfull of 20 life sc's i could squeeze in between ar charms which are more then required.

Sorry for the late response, i haven't been on the forums for a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:06 pm 
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if amp was to be restored or increased in value, that would make it a have to curse like it does now for physical damage dealers to do anything to act bosses if nothing was done to the boss charm. so if in a team that are mostly casters, with a necro, LR would be casted and the physical damage dealer would be doing nothing and sitting around.
unless you were suggesting to lower act bosses physical resist along with amp restoring.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Hflame wrote:
if amp was to be restored or increased in value, that would make it a have to curse like it does now for physical damage dealers to do anything to act bosses if nothing was done to the boss charm. so if in a team that are mostly casters, with a necro, LR would be casted and the physical damage dealer would be doing nothing and sitting around.
unless you were suggesting to lower act bosses physical resist along with amp restoring.


I was not suggesting to lower any boss physical resist. Last patch Amplify Damage was a required curse for a melee, yet apparently they were unbalanced enough to warrant such incredible nerfs.
Of course, last patch you also had much higher CTC Amplify Damage, and using CTC Amp was viable for sub-bosses and weaker act bosses. If you return ctc Amplify Damage values to what they once were, reliance on a Necromancer goes down to an acceptable rate.

Also, as someone who plays a lot of melee, I never had a problem with the fact I need a Necromancer to do my full damage. It's just now that a Necromancer MUST MAX Amplify Damage in order for me to be the least bit effective that causes so many problems.
This means you need a specific Necromancer, instead of just finding any Necromancer to party with and be able to progress in this team based mod.


Finally, what has not been brought up... If melee can effectively damage a boss without Amplify Damage or Decrepify, any melee worth his salt will be nigh invincible with Life Tap curse active. My Assassin would already retain a 100% Life bulb versus most sub-bosses in Hell due to 30% leech. (Without Life Tap active, so Drain Effectiveness did apply)

If you were to lower bosses to have let's say 80% Physical resistance without any curse applied, with Life Tap you'd be healing for a lot.
The leech penalty in Hell in HU is ~25 (taken from the Drain Effectiveness topic, It's 1/3 in vanilla).
It's quite easy to obtain 45% Life Leech (15% LL Blood Rings and Diadems are quite easy to craft). With the added bonus of Life Tap, you'll be leeching ~13% of your actual damage. Obviously, you could itemize to have much more life leech quite easily.
If you're doing 30k average damage (not uncommon for a 2h build) you'd be leeching ~780 per hit in this instance. This is a lowball number as well, because if you wanted you could gear for 80%+ Life Leech pretty easily.

This is the real reason it's a terrible idea to allow melee to damage bosses without Amplify Damage or Decreprify. It doesn't matter that it would take me 5+ minutes to down Hell Andariel if I'm invincible while doing it with no outside help.

NOTE: For those of you not aware, Lifetap brings a monster's Drain Effectiveness to 100%, allowing you to fully leech bosses and monsters with low Drain Effectiveness.

EDIT: Just for fun I tinkered around with some Fury Druid gear, seeing how much life leech I could get without gimping myself.
Using Nos. Coil, Dracul's Grasp (even procs Life Tap!), 15% Rings/Ammy/Diadem, 8% LL blood boots, and double Skull'd Tomb Reaver, he can hit 155% Life Leech with Feral Rage active.
If you take into account the 1/4 penalty, that's ~38% life leech in Hell. Obviously with the ability to damage while having Life Tap up.... Well, that's going to be some insane healing that shouldn't be in the game. (IE: 1520 health per hit assuming 20k average damage and 80% physical resist.)

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:26 am 
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then wouldnt it be better to reduce bosses physical resist to say your random number 80% or 85%(whatever number we come up with), while increasing the amp a bit to your numbers, and disable or reduce how lifetap would change drain effectiveness?
this way melee's wouldnt gain the massive life leech from lifetap while they can still have it on to do more life leech or do ctc amp for more damage?

that is if its possible to adjust lifetap's effect on drain effectiveness.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:02 am 
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Hflame wrote:
then wouldnt it be better to reduce bosses physical resist to say your random number 80% or 85%(whatever number we come up with), while increasing the amp a bit to your numbers, and disable or reduce how lifetap would change drain effectiveness?
this way melee's wouldnt gain the massive life leech from lifetap while they can still have it on to do more life leech or do ctc amp for more damage?

that is if its possible to adjust lifetap's effect on drain effectiveness.


That would require entirely rebalancing the Life Tap curse, which if not done right will make it A) incredibly useless (It's already a very specific, rarely used curse) or B) still insane with melee being able to damage bosses at an acceptable rate.
As we've seen with this patch, throwing around random numbers can easily break core components of the game (such as physical damage versus act bosses now).

Added with the fact that the more editing and balancing we have to do, the more likely things are going to get fucked up, I don't find it a good idea. Blue's already admitted before he has little to no idea about actually coding the mod, so it would fall to someone else to do it. Entirely re-balancing physical resistance of all monsters, what % pierce Amplify Damage should obtain (seeing as how what was thought a minor nerf turned out to be game breaking) and then re-balance the entire Life Tap curse will be a ton of work for essentially the same effect.

Why do all this (and run the decent risk of fucking it up) when last patch we already had balanced physical resistance and a system that worked for melee?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:31 am 

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The magic absorb needs to be lowered/removed on the boss charm, makes damaging bosses impossible on hdins/bone necros. No reason for these to be so high since the builds who run magic damage already deal pitiful damage to bosses anyways.

The physical resistance should be adjusted so that ctc amp can break it on the later bosses.

Amp needs to be adjusted so that a ctc lvl 6 item isn't better than a 1 pt necro. This can easily be adjusted through how the system works. Starts at 15%, 1% per hard point, 1% for every 4 soft points.(so level 45 when it is maxed is 15+20+11=46% pierce.)

Drop the charms down so that the bosses sit at 90-115 resistance.

Raise crushing blow slightly, it's a significant portion of melee damage and you really shouldn't of gimped it so hard.

Raise res from diamonds to at least the jewel equivalent(20 for ubers).

Barbs could easily be brought in line simply by forcing their 1 pt wonders to actually require invested points to be useful. Sacrifice damage and utility for survivability. 1 point nat res is 60 resistance. That's dumb. Starts at 10, 1 per hard point, 1 for every 3 soft points.(Now I notice you make random changes to things without looking at the consequences, the time runeword would have to have it's nat res adjusted accordingly as +3 would be useless. Or just give it a solid res opposed to an oskill. You can see how a3 cold mercs and even mobs got out of control with the change).


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Quote:
Amp needs to be adjusted so that a ctc lvl 6 item isn't better than a 1 pt necro. This can easily be adjusted through how the system works. Starts at 15%, 1% per hard point, 1% for every 4 soft points.
You can set amp how you like, just need values, formulas aren't that hard.

Quote:
(so level 45 when it is maxed is 15+20+11=46% pierce.)

Quote:
Drop the charms down so that the bosses sit at 90-115 resistance.
?? and introduce phys pierce yeah? Reducing/adding many things leads to what we have now.
Necros don't need amp for themselves. Balancing phys melee around skill only one not meleephys char has is a bad idea. Amp from items should work just like every other oskill - BO/oak/sob/auras - provide minor buff when barbs/dins/druids etc aren't present. You can't expect necro to max amp just like you can't expect barbs max bo - they can go max inc first and still do ok.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:39 pm 

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Actually reducing things without knowing that a charm existed in the game that brought an invisible physical immunity is what fucked up the game. All you need to know is the proper values things should be at to deal damage, then goals that you want in the game.

Should a melee be able to kill a boss as fast as a poison zon with max amp up? etc etc, this all can be done through testing or by using last season's values as a guideline.

I was actually in favor of physical pierce, but aside from adding 1% pierce per hardpoint of your physical skills, it's going to be hard to get gemmed into your gear. And while it is hard to ask a necro to max amp, pretty much every build is viable enough to put 20 points into it. Bone is only 60, poison is only 60, summons can vary but you can bet they'll be maxing amp either way unless they plan on dealing all of their damage through an a3 merc.

This game is built on team play, if melee and elemental are both viable then it allows you to have flexibility in parties. Currently necro+poison zon can solo almost everything in the game, and there is nothing meteor+poison zon+bone necro can't do. I think balancing the two different styles of parties to fight at even speeds is beneficial, and that's all about figuring out how effective melee is first. You can't test how their damage is this patch because the resistances are too high.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Quote:
Bone is only 60, poison is only 60, summons can vary but you can bet they'll be maxing amp either way unless they plan on dealing all of their damage through an a3 merc.
Right. And if he decides to go 20 golem mast/iron golem then melee is fucked?. Amp doesn't give anything crucial to necs unlikely other skills - BO/OAK/LR (for psnzers) - they give bonuses to everyone not just the one kind of chars. So it's up to nec if he max amp or not. Balancing amp having in mind every nec with 20lvl is a bad idea.
I mean if they max it it shouldn't be gamebreaking (different formula, I suggested it weeks ago - for first 5 levels 4% gain then 1%) but let's just assume 5lvl amp should be still ok.

Quote:
This game is built on team play
Is there any char that heavily depend on others char skills? You can build meteo sorc with LR nec but you'll never kill hell diablo with fire. LR is just to help. Things that are supposed to be immune will always be


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Steel wrote:
Right. And if he decides to go 20 golem mast/iron golem then melee is fucked?. Amp doesn't give anything crucial to necs unlikely other skills - BO/OAK/LR (for psnzers) - they give bonuses to everyone not just the one kind of chars. So it's up to nec if he max amp or not. Balancing amp having in mind every nec with 20lvl is a bad idea.
I mean if they max it it shouldn't be gamebreaking (different formula, I suggested it weeks ago - for first 5 levels 4% gain then 1%) but let's just assume 5lvl amp should be still ok.


I 100% agree with this. Hard point curses are a bad idea and only limit team play.
It isn't like a Druid or Barbarian where maxing BO & Oak will not only ALWAYS benefit their own build, but ALWAYS benefit their party.
Amplify Damage doesn't benefit a Poison Necromancer (which is an 80 point build with hard point LR btw.) and Amplify Damage doesn't benefit a Bone Necromancer.
The only arguable Necromancer build it does benefit is Summonmancer, but that's entirely dependent on mercenary choice. And given the recent CE nerfs, maxing Amplify Damage is even less appealing to the class.

And again, maxing Oak or BO will benefit any party you play with. Having to max Amplify Damage will only benefit a physical based party and vastly decreases a Necromancer's versatility and ability to support any given party.


Also:
Angel wrote:
Drop the charms down so that the bosses sit at 90-115 resistance.


Why bother to do this when we already have Amplify Damage values that worked for melee last patch? You won't be doing anything significant to a boss with 90% physical resistance and the higher ones will be immune. You'll still require Amplify Damage to kill them. It's a pointless change to their physical resistance while nerfing Amplify Damage versus trash mobs for builds like Bowazon, Warcry Barb, and Windy Druid.

Angel wrote:
Should a melee be able to kill a boss as fast as a poison zon with max amp up? etc etc, this all can be done through testing or by using last season's values as a guideline.


Melee didn't kill as fast as a good poison character last patch. The only one on a comparable speed was probably full CB Smiter, and that's just due to how the Smite skill works and how it allows you to apply CB more often than any other skill in the game.
In my opinion, melee were perfectly fine last patch. The only thing that really needed a nerf was the Crushing Blow given by Ber runes, which allowed builds to gain large chunks of CB without giving up any gear slots.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:41 pm 

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Quote:
Why bother to do this when we already have Amplify Damage values that worked for melee last patch? You won't be doing anything significant to a boss with 90% physical resistance and the higher ones will be immune. You'll still require Amplify Damage to kill them. It's a pointless change to their physical resistance while nerfing Amplify Damage versus trash mobs for builds like Bowazon, Warcry Barb, and Windy Druid.


Worked? I thought the goal was to remove the ability to solo a boss via a ctc amp.

Quote:
Is there any char that heavily depend on others char skills? You can build meteo sorc with LR nec but you'll never kill hell diablo with fire. LR is just to help. Things that are supposed to be immune will always be


Immunities force elemental characters into having someone else kill it or tediously doing it themselves via a merc. Or LR, obviously.

Quote:
Right. And if he decides to go 20 golem mast/iron golem then melee is fucked?. Amp doesn't give anything crucial to necs unlikely other skills - BO/OAK/LR (for psnzers) - they give bonuses to everyone not just the one kind of chars. So it's up to nec if he max amp or not. Balancing amp having in mind every nec with 20lvl is a bad idea.
I mean if they max it it shouldn't be gamebreaking (different formula, I suggested it weeks ago - for first 5 levels 4% gain then 1%) but let's just assume 5lvl amp should be still ok.


So essentially you want necros to be just rapetastic amazing? They can run both spectrums, amp or LR to suit the needs with 1-5 points, have amazing summons that can both tank trash and tank pretty much every boss in the game, AND you want them to be extremely viable in boss(poison) trash(bone) sub-boss(both) killing? Are you serious? One of the "goals" of the game was to encourage team play. The values I set would dictate that, yes, 1 point would allow you to actually deal damage with melee but twenty points would cause you to deal a significant more. Why not just balance all the skills for 1 point wonders then? Why should a sorc have to put 20 points in the masteries? 1 point, that'll let them roll two trees to deal with immunities.(sarcasm btw)


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:33 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Worked? I thought the goal was to remove the ability to solo a boss via a ctc amp.


Why is that a goal? If it is, it's a pointless one that doesn't have balance in mind. Balancing around soloing bosses is silly because you won't be doing it in an untwinked playthrough. Besides, tons of elemental characters can solo bosses with no curses.
If soloing is an issue you'd have to re-balance the entire game.


Angel wrote:
So essentially you want necros to be just rapetastic amazing? They can run both spectrums, amp or LR to suit the needs with 1-5 points, have amazing summons that can both tank trash and tank pretty much every boss in the game, AND you want them to be extremely viable in boss(poison) trash(bone) sub-boss(both) killing? Are you serious? One of the "goals" of the game was to encourage team play. The values I set would dictate that, yes, 1 point would allow you to actually deal damage with melee but twenty points would cause you to deal a significant more. Why not just balance all the skills for 1 point wonders then? Why should a sorc have to put 20 points in the masteries? 1 point, that'll let them roll two trees to deal with immunities.(sarcasm btw)


How would being able to use both curses effectively make them "rapetastic amazing"? Were people crying "OMFG NECRO SO OP" last patch when they could effectively use both curses without entirely gimping their own build?

Necromancer curses have always been one point wonders. I don't see the imbalance in it, or the imbalance in any of the one point wonders that are currently in place.

Like you said, one of the "goals" is to encourage team play. Making a Necromancer max both curses to effectively play with any team doesn't encourage team play. A necromancer will always max the curse most beneficial to their build, thereby fucking the other side (whether it be physical or elemental) out of a curse.

With that type of mentality, we might as well make all Paladin auras, Burst of Speed, Fade, all Barbarian masteries, Holy Shield, and all Amazon passives only effective with hard points.
A Paladin can run 1 of ~8 auras to cater to the specific situation without dumping 40 points? Oh man, totally overpowered, nerf inc.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:01 pm 

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Yeah necros were retarded last patch. Trangs poison necs were like zons this patch but with the ability to clear trash far better.

You don't see the imbalance of 1 point in a skill changing a melee character's damage from nothing to outstanding? Guess you think valor / armageddon are balanced too then.

The goal of team play is to play with a team. You focus your team around playing through the game. Team =/= pugging. Pugging is a waste of my time, it literally just makes playing through the game harder because a boss has like 1200 more life.

So which spells in the paladin arsenal pretty much increase physical damage of party members by a literal 800% with one point? Should prayer heal for that of a healer with one point in it? Seems balanced.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:53 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Yeah necros were retarded last patch. Trangs poison necs were like zons this patch but with the ability to clear trash far better.


That had to do with Oskill Teleport on Trangs, usable CE, and A1 physical mercs. All of that is removed, so having 1 point Amplify Damage will not make or break that build. It's no longer relevant to the discussion of hard point curses.


Angel wrote:
You don't see the imbalance of 1 point in a skill changing a melee character's damage from nothing to outstanding? Guess you think valor / armageddon are balanced too then.


Yes, assumptions and putting words in my mouth are awesome ways to conduct an argument.
Also, the previous CTC Amplify Damage values worked fine for most bosses. Your analogy is inaccurate, as a 1pt Amplify Damage Necromancer brought your damage from decent to great.
Having an actual Necromancer is a step-up from using a CTC Amp item? Sounds totally broken, I know.


Angel wrote:
The goal of team play is to play with a team. You focus your team around playing through the game. Team =/= pugging. Pugging is a waste of my time, it literally just makes playing through the game harder because a boss has like 1200 more life.


Shouldn't a skill that effects the game so much be available to every Necromancer build? It's a required skill for melee to be effective, but is effectively useless when one isn't around.
It adds 20-40 hard points to every Necro build, effectively making every Necromancer build a 100 point build.
Not everyone has the perfect 4man party to roll through with. Sometimes you do need to pick up someone random or use public games to progress. Why limit everyone's options by making Necromancers choose between what curse to make viable?
All that leads to (which it has this patch) is a Necromancer choosing Lower Resist or Amplify Damage and effectively fucking either spectrum depending on their choice.

Angel wrote:
So which spells in the paladin arsenal pretty much increase physical damage of party members by a literal 800% with one point? Should prayer heal for that of a healer with one point in it? Seems balanced.


None do, but that doesn't change the fact they're effective 1 point wonders. What Necromancer curse increases your entire parties IAS, AR, Resists, or Absorbs? I fail to see your point.
Prayer isn't a one point wonder and has no relevance in this discussion. That's a terrible analogy. It's like saying soft point curses are equivalent to someone being able to 1 pt CORE skills to their build. Which they aren't.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:36 pm 

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Quote:
That had to do with Oskill Teleport on Trangs, usable CE, and A1 physical mercs. All of that is removed, so having 1 point Amplify Damage will not make or break that build. It's no longer relevant to the discussion of hard point curses.


It's only no longer relevant because you don't cast amp ever anyways this patch.
Quote:
Your analogy is inaccurate, as a 1pt Amplify Damage Necromancer brought your damage from decent to great.


Wrong? CTC amp made your damage go from essentially not dealing damage to dealing decent damage. A 1 pt necro made you go from dealing decent damage(ctc amp) to faceroll damage.

Quote:
Having an actual Necromancer is a step-up from using a CTC Amp item? Sounds totally broken, I know.


The difference back then was absolutely retarded. The hard point/soft point difference made you have to take away your defensive abilities(summons) to allow for such powerful swings in damage(dealing damage opposed to not dealing damage in a lot of cases. Other cases were a 30 second fight with andy opposed to a 5 minute fight).

Quote:
Shouldn't a skill that effects the game so much be available to every Necromancer build? It's a required skill for melee to be effective, but is effectively useless when one isn't around.


If you read what I suggested and had the math skills of a kindergarten student, you'd know that even 1 point amp would cause melee to deal damage. 20 points would cause them to deal significantly more, which is what putting points into the skill SHOULD do.

Quote:
All that leads to (which it has this patch) is a Necromancer choosing Lower Resist or Amplify Damage and effectively fucking either spectrum depending on their choice.


Most necros have 1 point LR and 1 point amp. They very rarely ever cast amp because melee is completely worthless this patch. The actual way amp was adjusted is actually beneficial to the mod, it's just the values were incorrect in terms of the boss base resistance essentially making melee deal no damage.

Quote:
None do, but that doesn't change the fact they're effective 1 point wonders. What Necromancer curse increases your entire parties IAS, AR, Resists, or Absorbs? I fail to see your point.
Prayer isn't a one point wonder and has no relevance in this discussion. That's a terrible analogy. It's like saying soft point curses are equivalent to someone being able to 1 pt CORE skills to their build. Which they aren't.


Essentially necros made you deal damage when otherwise you wouldn't be able to with a single point. It's exactly like not doing any sort of relevant damage then putting a single point in a mastery skill(like fire mastery) and having it act like it's maxed(hey you deal damage now yay)


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:08 pm 
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Angel wrote:
Wrong? CTC amp made your damage go from essentially not dealing damage to dealing decent damage. A 1 pt necro made you go from dealing decent damage(ctc amp) to faceroll damage.


Umm... That's exactly what I just said. CTC Amplify Damage allowed you to deal decent damage. A 1pt Amplify Damage Necromancer allowed you to deal great damage.
CTC Amplify Damage no longer does this.

Angel wrote:
The difference back then was absolutely retarded. The hard point/soft point difference made you have to take away your defensive abilities(summons) to allow for such powerful swings in damage(dealing damage opposed to not dealing damage in a lot of cases. Other cases were a 30 second fight with andy opposed to a 5 minute fight).


Maxing Summons was a core part of a Summon Necromancer (note the name). Maxing Bone skills are a core part of a Bone Necromancer, maxing Psn are the core of a Psnmancer.
None of these builds ever had the "core" of maxing curses. Like a Paladin, it was expected to have 1 point wonders that helped the party tremendously and was available to EVERY Necromancer build.

Angel wrote:
If you read what I suggested and had the math skills of a kindergarten student, you'd know that even 1 point amp would cause melee to deal damage. 20 points would cause them to deal significantly more, which is what putting points into the skill SHOULD do.


Getting a little angry? Let's try to keep the personal insults out of the discussion, shall we?

Your 1 point Amplify damage would cause ~20% Physical pierce at level 20. Assuming your higher values of 90-115 are for the harder hell bosses, you'll be attacking versus a 95% physical resistant boss. Will you damage it? Yes. Does damaging them with such a low amount matter? No.

Putting hard points into Amplify Damage already allowed you to deal more damage. It was the difference between having a ~75% Amplify Damage and a ~90% Amplify Damage. Squeezing that extra 10%-15% on the only source of physical pierce in the game was worth it for some people, and some people did max Amplify Damage.
Was it required to max Amplify Damage for melee to kill effectively? No. Did it enhance their damage? Yes.

Angel wrote:
Most necros have 1 point LR and 1 point amp. They very rarely ever cast amp because melee is completely worthless this patch. The actual way amp was adjusted is actually beneficial to the mod, it's just the values were incorrect in terms of the boss base resistance essentially making melee deal no damage.


A Necromancer with 1pt Amplify Damage this patch is absolutely USELESS to a physical build versus a boss.
Even if you balance it correctly, a 1pt Amplify Damage Necromancer will be the equivalent of a CTC Amplify Damage item. Personally, I believe any Necromancer at all should outclass a CTC Amp item (like it did last patch).

Angel wrote:
Essentially necros made you deal damage when otherwise you wouldn't be able to with a single point. It's exactly like not doing any sort of relevant damage then putting a single point in a mastery skill(like fire mastery) and having it act like it's maxed(hey you deal damage now yay)


Except Fire Druids already did relevant damage. Also, a Fire Druid gets Oskill Mastery by HIMSELF, he doesn't require a Necromancer to cast it for him.

Melee already had a mini-Necromancer in the form of CTC Amplify Damage items (speaking of last patch's values). When you brought a real Necromancer to your party, you did significantly more damage.

Why does a Necromancer, whose core damage does not revolve around physical resistance, HAVE to max Amplify Damage? There is nothing wrong with 1 point Amplify Damage being a significant force.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:34 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
As I am sure I have said to you before - dazzle us with your masterful balance in a new patch. Build it, assemble it and present it. I honestly think it would be cool to have competing patches every now and then, so I am 100% serious. Granted you will need to get Soulmancer's thumbs up on it as it is his call and not mine, but I am sure with your wonderful abundance of knowledge, the brilliance of your suggestions will be immediately clear and he (and the rest of the community) will gather around and sing your praises and instantly give you the big thumbs up.
Haven't said much in a while, for which I'd bet Blue is grateful. However, time to speak a bit. As you may recall, Blue, some did speak out before this patch rolled out suggesting a bit of moderation in the changes being proposed. Why? Simple had smaller changes been made, balance would have been less disrupted. Such things as str/res/sorbs being split down the middle would have still had an impact on game play without being game breaking. But, as per the norm you wouldn't listen to anyone but yourself. Even Soulmancer suggested smaller changes, and with his experience as creator, you'd have thought someone might have listened to his suggestions. Even when given ideas of what could have been they were blasted as if I was an ignorant unskilled player. Nothing is farther from the truth. While I freely admit to not having played this mod for 5+ years like some, I do have a good head for what works.

The end result is a few people thought they knew what balance was, they found out differently. Return to us the playability we used to enjoy. Not necessarily the dominance of melee as the end all boss killer, but at least respectability. Give back a bit of what was taken away. While I agree with the soul shards as being good ideas, some items got tweaked way over the top in compensation. Such items as Valor and Armageddon are too op, even with nerfed lr. Most late game caster gear got tweaked too much and would have been fine even if left alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:17 am 
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Discussing balance is great and all, but nothing is going to be changed for a while.(most likely forever) It's like we don't know who's in charge anymore, no one wants to step up to the plate or take any of the blame, any sort of argument towards balance ends up with Blue+Hell Unleashed Elitists vs. normal people.

Blue's inability to take any sort of criticism is fucking mindblowing. The goal of this patch is mindblowing. Forcing a necro to be there to click 1 button doesn't make the game hard or make teamwork required, it just gives us more tedium. Mind fucking blowing.

blue_myriddn wrote:
Sorry to hear that your barb sucks, but quite simply - mine doesnt.

The 'your barb sucks' is even more mindblowing. This just has to be an elaborate troll, there is no fucking way your that clueless. You must be playing on normal mode with lvl 90 barb.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:52 pm 

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Poison necs were the end all be all of boss killers either way. Anything that wasn't poison immune pretty much got destroyed by them.

Level 40 necro who casts amp damage on an end game boss should provide a bigger boost than a late game item with ctc amp. Makes perfect sense.

You can tell how much thought was put into the patch when sweeping changes were made to things like conviction and values not adjusted for the runewords who used them. They're useless now.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:02 pm 
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rws that use conviction were not supposed to be adjusted...if you want strong conviction, use a paladin? there are so many ways to pierce elemental resist.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Zikur wrote:
rws that use conviction were not supposed to be adjusted...if you want strong conviction, use a paladin? there are so many ways to pierce elemental resist.
I agree. I don't think the nerf to conviction is crippling any builds that use a level 3 conviction(Infinity) or a level 6 conviction(Thirst for Knowledge).


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:13 pm 

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Using the weapon cripples you.
+3 to skills
~30 pierce

opposed to
5 skills
60+ pierce


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:10 pm 
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if you are making tfk in a white orb with no abilities, you're doing it wrong.
first off the weapon is supposed to be +5 and was just an error that it is still +3 from what i understand. and conviction can pierce immunities reg pierce cant. apples/oranges.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:33 am 
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I'd like to know when tfk had +5skills...


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:58 am 
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i think it was supposed to this season

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:54 am 

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it doesnt though...

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Steel wrote:
I'd like to know when tfk had +5skills...

don't think it did.
I think I tweaked fathom to +5 skills and then tweaked TFK accordingly on the website. Then when doing the txt file updates, I missed it so it never got buffed.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:22 pm 

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Can pierce very few things in the game. It essentially pierces the same as an act 3 merc's holy freeze, which is like 1 monster type.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:25 pm 
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stacks with LR and I think the merc auras - although I always confuse about them.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:20 pm 

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They do stack, regardless you won't have LR and most mercs won't be the same element.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:45 pm 
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if you don't like the item - that's cool, don't use it.
its useful though.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:41 pm 

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It's about as useful as shako is.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:53 pm 
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Too many useless items and useless builds, oh what have we done with this failure of a patch

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:41 am 
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yeah cause there were less useless items before, oh wait.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:17 am 
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tfk should have higher lvl of conv IMO. It's a great support aura for all chars -def -res but 6lvl range limits it. It's still ok for cold nova as hurri/6lvl conv/nova have about the same range.
Quote:
Too many useless items and useless builds
Whatever suits you... It's cool to have a choice. You don't like +3all in +3skill orb, 20lvl hurri slowing everything down near you with +- 4.5k dmg, go for fathom/time.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:54 am 
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Steel wrote:
tfk should have higher lvl of conv IMO. It's a great support aura for all chars -def -res but 6lvl range limits it. It's still ok for cold nova as hurri/6lvl conv/nova have about the same range.
Quote:
Too many useless items and useless builds
Whatever suits you... It's cool to have a choice. You don't like +3all in +3skill orb, 20lvl hurri slowing everything down near you with +- 4.5k dmg, go for fathom/time.


Yea I wasn't really refererring to fathom/TfK, but, to the shako comment.

Here's my scruple with balancing items and skills. You can't base it on making the game 'Hard', simple because its fucking diablo 2 and you fuck up the whole appeal of the game to everyone if you shit all over builds because it was 'too easy'.

I'm really sick of this debate on this patch. So many huge major inbalances exist and we don't know who's in charge, what actions to take, this mod will die period.

I'm sorry I stopped playing testing melee with you Steel cuz we coulda got something done, I just threw up after playing so much d2 and I needed to go party/get laid/work/get a life, and I gave my account to my friend Angel.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:49 am 

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the range on auras should be increased....a lot. At least the defensive auras

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:58 am 
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Verb wrote:
the range on auras should be increased....a lot. At least the defensive auras

why?
by how much?
what auras in particular and why?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:19 am 
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thats typically what happens when you are 'top barb'
aka plays the most.
shako has always been what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:39 pm 
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shako is a pile of crap, theres 100 better helms out there. (dragon skull for sorc for example, and similar level req)

it doesnt even drop where you would want to wear it

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:05 pm 

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blue_myriddn wrote:
Verb wrote:
the range on auras should be increased....a lot. At least the defensive auras

why?
by how much?
what auras in particular and why?


why? it would just be nice :D
mostly because you as a party member have no idea how long range the particular active aura has in range and then you have to keep really good track where the paladin is standing... wich can be tedious and then you're mostly staring on the minimap to find the paladin, instead of looking at the actual game.
I dont know about you but looking at the minimap is boring.

Wich auras? I dont know, but I was mostly thinking about those that buff the party members by giving them the aura aswell, such as concentrate, resist auras ect.
how much? just slightly increase the range of the first rank. The increase from more points in it can stay the same. Or lightly reduced to compensate for the first point increase.

Its just my opinion, if you dont think its needed then fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:07 pm 

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Rasta wrote:

it doesnt even drop where you would want to wear it


so if it did drop where you would want to wear it, then it would be acceptable or what?

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:27 pm 
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probs act 1 from quill rats he would go for

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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:14 pm 
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Quote:
shako is a pile of crap, theres 100 better helms out there. (dragon skull for sorc for example, and similar level req)
Shako is as Shako does...

Quote:
it doesnt even drop where you would want to wear it
But dragon skull does? 70 vs 73lvl.
Currently I'm playing titan quest single player with underlord mod and It taught me that you should use whatever you find - common stuff, rare or whatever - just pick up, check stats, use or sell.
But I prefer singleplayer games overall :(.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:16 am 
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Just gonna put this out there that the model for your balance is wrong.

Allright, if I have a shako and no dragon skull then yes it's great. My question is should I have to endlessly farm for shako to keep going on my quest, presumably act 3 NM at lvl 70. Since a lot of items really suck compared to a few very good items, and since some builds are vastly superior to other builds, it stands to reason that you need a high char to twink badly balanced builds or you don't stand a chance.

'Oh look ill just join this public game to do Nightmare meph on my fire sorc, OH LOOK THEY ARE ALL MELEE CHARS SO THEY SUCK, holdon this druid has spiritwolf, okay druid spam spiritwolf and ill meteor him to death, here let's just both put a heavy object on our mouse button and file our taxes, meph will be dead when we get back.'

Now onto this whole 'melee's are tanks' bullshit.

MELEES ARE NOT FOR TANKING

Get real.

Melee is only hard enough to be able to damage a boss, if you aren't a hard target then you will die in 1 second at the toes of a boss. Sure you can put a healer behind your melee or drop a pot bomb, but otherwise your not really doing anything.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
This patch is probably the best balance HU has seen in a long time.

Abominae wrote:
@Blue
Hmmm.... Sometimes I believe your logic is on another fucked up plane of existence.


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:02 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:59 pm
Posts: 113
Rasta wrote:
and since some builds are vastly superior to other builds, it stands to reason that you need a high char to twink badly balanced builds or you don't stand a chance.


Sadly true, most of my decent items of lvl 70 have been hand-me-downs from high lvl players.

If not for them, I'd still be swinging the tankor pike i had drop in A4 normal all the way up to lvl 60 where I'd stall and wait to be carried as opposed to actually being useful.

At lvl 75 (on 2 chars, one of which a healer, I'm future proofing my druid by allowing him to tank -> he just stands there and my healer spamms him while mercs/party take the boss out) I still haven't found any of the good weps I was/am using on the druid (gavel of pain, bonehew, Ethereal Edge axe), and the alternatives I did find were craptastic in comparison.

Maybe I was unlucky?


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 Post subject: Re: Melee characters are too hard to play
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:11 am 
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Items being passed down from higher level characters is the basic design paradigm that blizzard setup for Diablo2. It is part of the core mechanism that compels players to roll new characters (oh wow - I found this awesome item, I should make a character to use it).

In HU, this is greatly diminished due to the increased item drop to the point where you can often succeed using items that fall as you progress, or do minimal farming (as evidenced by the first ladder runners), but the model is still very much there - especially for players less skilled/experienced or builds that are less powerful.

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