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 Post subject: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:26 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:36 am
Posts: 39
Is there something that's bugging your mind about barbs? Do you think that they are shit? Do you think that amp is gone and will never come back? Let me introduce you, the following duo: Blade of Arreat and Battle Cry.

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Yo dawg i heard yo' amp is fucked up so i put a blade and a battle cry in your warcries so you can reduce defense while you reduce defense.

Are you not convinced? Do you think sinking points in these 2 skills are even more shit than melee's current situation? Well, b.net noobs think that maxing out on prayer is even worse than current barbs. But, it's appearantly not as bad as b.net noobs think, right?

So, let's analyze these skills first:

1- Blade of Arreat:

Level 20:
Duration: 19.1 secs
Radius: 12
Enemy Defense Reduction: 25 Percent
Manacost: 49

Level 1:
Duration: 10
Radius: 12
Enemy Defense Reduction: 25 Percent
Manacost: 30

This skill, just like grim ward in original d2, effects enemies like an aura. Investing more than 1 point doesn't look that good as it does not improve the skill too much.

2- Battle Cry:

Level 20:
Manacost: 5
Duration: 48
Enemy Defense Reduction: 88 Percent
Enemy Attack Reduction: 44 Percent

Level 1:
Manacost: 5
Duration: 10
Enemy Defense Reduction: 50 Percent
Enemy Attack Reduction: 25 Percent

Unlike Blade of Arreat, this skill works like a curse and that's why i think that these two skills will work together.

Let's analyze the skill point distribution of a generic frenzy barb:
Warcries:
Howl -> 1
Shout -> 1*
Battle Orders -> 20
Battle Command -> 1

Combat Skills:
Double Swing -> 17
Double Throw -> 1
Frenzy -> 20

Masteries:
Weapon Mastery: 20
Increased Stamina: 20
Natural Resistance: 1
Iron Skin: 13*

*Iron Skin or Shout is up to player's preference. Iron Skin over Shout gives +13 PDR and 60% less increase on defense rating and shout gives 60% more defense rating without pdr bonus AND synergy on battle command and battle orders. If we shave 24 points on this build and distribute them like the following, we will get this newly made barb:

Taunt: 1
Find Potion: 1
Find Item: 1
Blade of Arreat: 1
Battle Cry: 20


The important point: Which skills to shave points from?

Here, my opinion is to shave points from battle orders and increased stamina, which is probably the most controversial decision possible. Here is the thing.
Increased Stamina gives 4% per hard point and Battle Orders give 15% for first and additional 3% per each hard point after first. Let h be the number of hard points. When h>15, increased stamina gives more bonuses than battle orders with same h. When h<15, battle orders gives more health bonus. At h=15, they are equal. So, if we cut battle orders all the way down to 1 and cut 5 points from increased stamina, we get the optimal health bonus with 24 hard points.

Our new skillset becomes:
Warcries:
Howl: 1
Shout: 1* (look above)
Taunt: 1
Battle Cry: 20
Battle Orders: 1
Battle Command: 1
Find Potion: 1
Find Item: 1
Blade of Arreat: 1

Combat Skills:
Double Swing: 17
Double Throw: 1
Frenzy: 20

Combat Masteries:
Weapon Mastery: 20
Increased Stamina: 15
Natural Resistance: 1
Iron Skin: rest*

*This time this is more important. After cutting battle orders all the way down to 1, we have this issue. Now, our buffcries last shorter than an iceberg in a volcano, so shout has one more advantage over iron skin. Make your choice accordingly. I'd prefer shout over iron skin this time. Even though it costs mana repeatedly, which is what we'll be short on in this build with repeated battle cries and blades, 30 seconds battle orders will be less mana-efficient compared to shout over iron skin.

So, here comes the questions:
1- Do they really stack?
2- Do 1 level blade and 20 level battle cry break a physical immunity? Like Hell Andariel or something of that sort?

Discuss.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Enemy Defense =/= Enemy Physical Resistance.

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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Good post - well thought out.
It is true though that you aren't reducing enemy physical resist, just their defense. That isn't a small thing though. Personally I think that 1 pointing both of these skills is more than fine.

Fairly confident that they do stack as I use them both in conjunction. Allows barbs to get by with a lot less +AR gear and get better leech rates from the few bosses that do allow leeching (stupid high Drain Efficiency values....)

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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:36 am
Posts: 39
Abominae wrote:
Enemy Defense =/= Enemy Physical Resistance.
blue_myriddn wrote:
Good post - well thought out.
It is true though that you aren't reducing enemy physical resist, just their defense. That isn't a small thing though. Personally I think that 1 pointing both of these skills is more than fine.

Fairly confident that they do stack as I use them both in conjunction. Allows barbs to get by with a lot less +AR gear and get better leech rates from the few bosses that do allow leeching (stupid high Drain Efficiency values....)
So, this means that this build can drill through stone skin like hot knife does to butter.

But unfortunately stops doing shit against physical immune? Fuck.

Anyway, I fail to understand the reason why amp can break through physical immunity and battle cry+blade can't.

Let's look at amp:
Increases the non-magic damage taken by enemy. So, a physical immune monster takes 0 non-magic damage. No matter how hard we amplify that, it's 0. Guess I'm another noob.

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blue_myriddn wrote:
mrporter wrote:
They want unearned riches and unearned respect
...
not the deep feeling of self-worth that comes from actually earning what you have.

ARE THESE THE OTHER PEOPLE YOU WANTED TO SHEAD FROM THE COMMUNITY?

Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Unfortunately - no.
While Stone Skin does raise a monster's defense, it mostly increases their physical resistance.

Just like you have resistances on your character (light/fire/cold/psn) and a defense rating, monsters have the same thing. What happens when you go up to face a character is this:

1. you swing your weapon
2. before your weapon hits the monster, the game does a mathematical computation based on your attack rating & level and compares it to the defense rating & level of the monster.
3. if your total score is higher than the monsters total score, you will slap him upside the head. If the monsters total score is higher than yours though, your weapon goes whistling past him and does no damage what so ever.

Battle cry and Blade work to dramatically reduce the monsters defense, which generally means their defense "score" is very low and you slap that bitch up.

Physical resistance works a different way. Lets assume you do manage to smack that boss and your total damage is 1000. If that monster has 50% physical resistance, then he will "resist" 50% of it and only take 500 damage.

If a monster has 100% physical resistance, you can hit him all day long and he won't take any damage - he is immune.

Amplify damage reduces that physical resistance allowing you to do damage. So if you happen to have someone cast Amplify damage with a value of -30% physical resist, that monster will no longer have 50% resist, only 20%. Rather than 500 damage, he takes 800 damage. That is over a 50% increase in damage - that is why Amp is such a big deal.

Incidentally, here is what seems to be screwing over melee characters now a days. Certain bosses have a charm in their back pocket that gives them an additional physical resistance. So take that example above where you are hitting for 1000 dmg. The boss's physical resistance (often set at 75%) drops it down to 250. Then the charm in his back pocket reduces it in 1/2 again down to 125. To make matters worse, bosses have a decent regeneration rate, so by the time you hit him again he has probably healed that 125 damage back again.

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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:07 pm 
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Quote:
Certain bosses have a charm in their back pocket that gives them an additional physical resistance.
All bosses that regen over time when not hit on all diffs, to be precise.
Quote:
The boss's physical resistance (often set at 75%) drops it down to 250. Then the charm in his back pocket reduces it in 1/2 again down to 125.
Not really, I've already tested it even with elemental damage(http://forum.arimyth.com/viewtopic.php?p=24462#p24462 and posts below) that it stacks. So if boss have 75% and 50% it's 125% and amp works with full strength unlikely "regular" phys immuns.
Quote:
To make matters worse, bosses have a decent regeneration rate, so by the time you hit him again he has probably healed that 125 damage back again.
Again, check that topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Steel wrote:
it stacks. So if boss have 75% and 50% it's 125% and amp works with full strength unlikely "regular" phys immuns.

I don't understand how you can have 125% resistance to something. That would make melee attack heal bosses.

1000 dmg x 125% = monster heals by 250 damage.

*edit*
I understand what you are saying now. The 75% and 50% add to make 125% physical resistance making the boss immune. However unlike normal immunity, it only takes 30% to remove the immunity.

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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Yes, again on phys res and this time it won't be offtopic. I believe Soulmancer knew that and added it to prevent easy boss fights - remember there's a cap of hp you can't go over (8.3mil but divine it by 5 you'll get max hp on single spawn) as it'd roll over to. With Amp 40% on every ctc item if Hell Andariel had 75% and 50% it'd leave her with 85%, if maul dru 3fpa 200k fpa would use atma lowering her phys res to 30% she would last 4 secs (she has 900k hp on single spawn) but it never happened. Keep that in mind.
With current amp all bosses that have over 77% phys res won't be affected by amp from items. Only exception is andy which has 75% and 40% item and duriel which is now completely broken, he gets 101% from smite + 40%phys res

Quote:
Battle cry and Blade work to dramatically reduce the monsters defense, which generally means their defense "score" is very low and you slap that bitch up.
Any info how it works vs player? If let's say barb has iron skin + shout + frozen armor he has 1200%(random number)enchanted defense, now that -25% cuts it from final def or from that 1200% leaving it 1175%ED? I might confused it with something else, but I remember that was never effective in PvP.


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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:29 pm 
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Location: Toronto, Canada
blue_myriddn wrote:
Good post - well thought out.
It is true though that you aren't reducing enemy physical resist, just their defense. That isn't a small thing though. Personally I think that 1 pointing both of these skills is more than fine.

Fairly confident that they do stack as I use them both in conjunction. Allows barbs to get by with a lot less +AR gear and get better leech rates from the few bosses that do allow leeching (stupid high Drain Efficiency values....)


LETS REDUCE THE BOSS DEFENSE SO WE CAN HIT MORE TO DO 0 DAMAGE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Hmmm.... Sometimes I believe your logic is on another fucked up plane of existence.


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 Post subject: Re: Both Blade and Battle Cry
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:09 pm 
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We know rasta... stop spaming in every thread please.

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