Kinda in the middle of a vengance pala atm, Heres how its going so far.

act one is pretty self explanitory, It never really varys. Get a decent weapon and deaths combo...kill andariel. job done
I saved my points until 20 (getting 1 in each aura etc too), ihen started on vengance. I was able to get 3 or 4 in holy shield before it came time to get conviction and still save enough points to max vengance while puting a point in convic every level. I maxed conviction from 36 (and used saved points to finish vengance) and got a point in redemption, salvation etc. and one in conversion at 28. I've been running with alot of elemental builds so it's really qorking well so far. I opted for an act 3 light merc who is rocking now (level 55ish with well over the last fcr breakpoint and a good few + skills).

My strategy so far has been to just provide conviction for my merc and other party members and focus my attacks on the high life stuff, like siege beasts etc. The merc clears pretty fast even at low levels with so much - resist from conviction.

For bosses I've got a black runeword I use on switch to go along with rattlecage for some crushing blow and I use smite for the first half to 2/3 of the fights. After that I switch to vengance and conviction so the elemental damage from the other members can really come into play once crushing blow has lost its luster.

He is using a holy cross shield with 3 perf skulls in at the min, rattlecage with a p emerald, milabregas helm with 2 p rubys, teerhaunch, deaths combo, 2 paly rings with leech, life and res, saracens amu and I forget what main weapon now. Working out at 5kish vengance, -82% enemy res/def, max block, 15% Dr, 2.2k life unbuffed (around 5k with oak, 7.5k with a good bo too) well stacked res and 13% crushing blow when needed. Thats at level 58 so far.

I'm after the Orphans set in 2 levels and a battle hammer to make obediance in for a crushing blow smite setup. I'll use orphans set all the time but switch my weapon for obediance on bosses. Along with a shaftstop armour he should be pretty sturdy, he is already a nice tank with a little gear swapping when needed and conviction makes the elemental builds clear trash seriously fast so he is pretty well rounded so far.

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when i made my veng pally last patch it was pretty smooth sailing, then around 70-80 it started getting really hard to survive with so little life leech. also, the cold merc i had at the time started to not clear trash so well... probably was just his bad equipment

got him to 62 and into nm. he is now sporting 10k vengance, -82%res/def conv, 5%pierce each element on vengance (plus an extra 25%passive fire pierce from weapon), max block, well stacked res in nm, 36%Dr and 25% crushing blow. 3.3k life unbuffed, was up around 12k tonight with good bo and oak. not so much life leech, around 15% iirc but he is taking so little damage potions take care of it. So far so good anyway

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I applaud you for playing one of the worst paladin builds. However, don't you find it a bit silly you're basically a aura bitch? From the sound of it you haven't really used vengeance much at all. If you're just going to smite bosses and aura bitch the majority of the time what's the point of making vengeance at all? It's pretty much a 100 point build if you include HS. That leaves you very little room to play around with one point auras or pump a secondary party friendly one.

Don't mean to hate on vengeance so hard, but damn I don't know how anyone could enjoy playing one. The 100 point build is what really kills it for me. I can think of several paladin builds that can do everything vengeance can and more(without sinking 80 points into one of the shittiest melee skills in the game). Is this just a novelty character I'd guess? I've never seen anyone finish a vengeance build, but by all means if you're enjoying it don't let me stop ya.

yeh, a kinda project char, just to see how it works out. vengance is only used on shamans and uniques etc. it pops most things in 1 blow, two at most. the smaller stuff aint worth hitting as the merc or aoe builds can clear easy. vengance and conviction are finished now, tho each point in holy auras returns very mediocre damage, even with a high damage weapon. I was thinking about maxing fanat next, then a few more to holy shield before starting on the holy auras again.

So far he been very much a supporter, though vs bosses he is still a good tank. The horrific thing I'm finding is the terrible speed. They need both high damage and speed, unlike the frostbiter that only really needs speed. even with a fast weapon, get frozen by holy freeze with that moncurse on you and you cant land a hit with vengance. It should have really been looked at I think.
Am I right in thinking 8fpa is the max speed you can get with it? I was thinking of maybe using beast later on to provide fanat and conviction, though the damage on it is pretty low for the level. Im not sure what route I wanna go yet tbh. It's not a build for anyone who wants something for farming unless you are duo farming with a sorc or elemental zon etc. The main reason I made him was 3 friends of mine all made a diff element sorc so i decided i'd make him to complement all 3 of them to help with farmimg stuff. Whenever I've played him I've made solid progress, when people ele builds find out there is a venger around they seem to flock to it and that suits me nicely so far.

any ideas on the speeds in wolf form with a beast zerker ben?

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I have to agree, I don't think that Vengence has much to it as a skill. As you have already noticed it is slow as dirt which crushes any ability to leech and greatly reduces DPS. It is also crazy item dependant.

Still - good to see someone giving it a whirl, it is a build that I have long since discarded as not so hot.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

I did a paladin Duo a while back with one on sc. It was a formidable duo and was much the same as now. provide conviction for casters while attacking the high life enemys then using smite for 75% of the boss fight and switching to vengance to finish. The main reason I went vengance was when trying out maxed conversion on another pala I found that even an obscure build like that worked ok on bosses and trash. Granted he is a slow mover alone when an elemental build joins me its full steam ahead. It's obvious though that vengance needs some serious work (shame it wasn't braught up before the patch) raising it to 4 fpa max (with ALOT of ias) or even 5 fpa would do so much to help the build.

I do like an underdog build, and I dont expect him to turn out amazing. I was looking for something nobody else has bothered with to mix it up abit. I had great fun with my sanctuary zealer last season. That was another obscure build but very very fun still. The main bonus he had was the aura boosted his physical damage alot (tho wasn't listed) and added magic damage to the attack too. I'm planning on making one of those this season too.

Iso. a more underpowered build or 2 to try a duo or trio with. Dont have to be leet speedy builds etc. I've been toying with the idea of doing my old phoenix sin again (that you NEVER see) tho im not sure what element or elements to go. The problem I always had with them was if you play on a server with a tiny bit of lag you usualy end up missing the charge you are after. I know the meteors are pretty weak after doing a damage test but I'm not sure how many could be stacked if you got every charge off with no misses. Lightning looks good as lightning claw is pretty nice too but i`ll think about it more once I can think of a duo/trio team that would be a laugh.

some rough ideas for obscure unplayed builds.
jabzon
phoenix sin
mentalsin
sanc zealer
Pure zerk barb
damage return summon druid (Maxed sob, with thorns)
f orb is kinda hovering here now
obscure necro builds?

I`ll find something good to toy around with im sure

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I think the attack speed is hardcoded in to the attack animation which might limit the ability to mod it - so you are always going to be stuck with an 8 frame attack. I bet it is the same deal with how the damage is calculated. That sort of limits the ways to fix the build. I don't think the amount of dmg it does is really a big problem, but there is always the item limitation of putting a 1 handed fast weapon that does lots of damage. Why wouldn't EVERY character want that?

Pheonix sins are tons of fun

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

I had a mentalsin mid 60s last ladder, one of my favorite builds, great for bosses, crap at trash with out a good merc lol (which i didn't take the time to have, hence only getting to 60). I'm hoping to get one going this ladder after I get my singer a bit farther.

f orb sorc u dont see often, although Freya(#1 sorc//ladder) on SC is an f orbb sorc so that has been done already this season

and why worst paladin builds ?

i think the worst paladin build is still Sacrifice pala -.-
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whats about Blaze sorc ?

I've had blazers in the past. You cant play them unless you are in a dedicated group. the ammount of times i'd try to do andy and tell the team "LEAD HER INTO THE PATCH OF FIRE I MAKE" they just didnt bother and failed over and over again. Then, once they get her into the fire, all at once "OMG WTF!" great build but you need a decent team who know the score

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Sacrifice paladin seems kinda pointless in this mod from what I can tell. GREAT build on b.net though. I had a great adventure with a sacrifice paladin build I called the "Iron Martyr". I wrote up his adventures (comes up as the 2nd and 3rd links in google ):

http://www.mrfixitonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=1240
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums ... 54492.html (more detailed)

Version 1.0 died at 79 - killed himself of course by attacking an unleechable that was amp'd by the necro with me.

Version 2.0 went all the way to Guardian.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Just a quick update on this guy before i get some shuteye.

Got him into nm and regeared him as a meat shield for trash and high crushing blow setup for bosses, andariel and the countess were destroyed easily, as were juggy, ardual, summoner and duriel. He spanked sarina without to much trouble too. He is still lacking any kinda speed but as he is running with a nec he is free to run fanat to keep the speed up while lr deals with lowering resistances when needed.(this was in a1 and 2) i'm in the process of fixing him up a good death craft. Even with the slow speed, the damage is pretty big and takes a massive chunk from stuff, that makes up for the lack of speed.

at act 3 I rehired my merc. Got him at level 46, equipped him and all it took to catch him up was duoing through act 3 wps. I know some people are saying leveling mercs is a problem but even when playing in a party I've had no problems leveling a merc and havent had to make and "merc lvling" games. I topped his fcr off at 140% for 11fpa, the chain light is working nicely with charged bolt and lightning. With conviction running he clears trash at a cracking speed if im honest. I have conversion if things get to much or I need to step out of the fray for a while so he seems to be coping well.

The paly is at level 73 now and with the druid I'm running with using oak and some battle orders he is at just over 13k life with 37%damage reduce, max block, 10k vengance, -82 resist conviction, 25% crushing blow and well stacked resists, and 16kish defence. merc is the same level with +9 skills, max fcr and 18% passive light pierce. Vengance is so far very much a caster support build against trash (solo trash now with a good merc) if you can couple in lower resist with conviction and vengance on bosses the damage is...ok, but not great. It only really makes a decent impact after 50% of the bosses health is gone, but thats what smite is for I guess.

so far im really enjoying him and he really loves a party. trash farming is possible with a decent merc and a point in conversion but once you get an nm merc up and running solo farming seems pretty easy. With some decent equip options and a decent "skill point spread" (for want of a better phrase) they deal below average damage to bosses, though this is only up to sarina. I'll start hitting worse problems with vengance on bosses soon im positive on that much. It will be act 5 nm at least before vengance can come into play a little more. I'm hoping with some crafty equip choices he will get over the up and coming hump. At the minute, he is basicaly a conv bitch for the merc vs trash and a smiter on bosses with some vengance near the end of the boss (mainly just to put it to use since it is suposed to be my main attack)

to sum up. great build as a project, vengance is underpowered but it can be worked around and put to use. One of the more fun underpowered builds i've played. I'd rank it up there with the sanctuary zealer for fun factor. as a party class... well lets be honest, almost all paldins are very party friendly, having a choice of auras is always good. In terms of other paladin builds it could be better. Making it a static 8fpa with a radius like effect added to the hit would make it alot better in my opinion. at least make it an aoe skill, abit like dtail, that would put the skill to some use instead of just a novelty way to take the last 50% of a bosses life down. other pala builds outclass vengance by a long way unfortunately, I would guess thats why you never see any around.

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I have made a Vengeance Pally every ladder season and I think they are fun to play. Maybe not an uber build like some others, but really cool as a team player. I love the fact that NOTHING is immune to your damage and you can often break the immunity to help out your Sorc/Zon/Druid buddies. Yes, life/mana leech is a problem since most of your damage is elemental, but that also helps out when facing Iron Maiden since your actual physical damage is relatively small. I was always frustrated by the ridiculously sloooow attack speed, too. It takes a very fast weapon or another Pally with Fanaticism to correct that problem. My best build (about 2 ladders ago) played end game with a Ghostflame dagger weapon. You should check it out. Very fast +90% IAS (plus I socked it with an Ether Stone), +3 skills, Indestructible, +250-500 Magic damage etc. Tough to find but really kicks arse. The rest of my gear was fairly standard high level equipment. I have a new Avenger going for this ladder, but he is just starting out. I tend to follow a Holy Fire build for the early levels then swith over to Vengeance when able. Once again, a fun - party friendly build. GL with yours.

Circe

how woudl this build work with a 2h weapon?

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

it wouldnt. no block sucks on a pala and 8fpa max with a 2 hander means you gonna take alot of hits before you land one.

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I think I would give it a whirl if I were to play that build. Just sounds too fun to pass up on!

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

i put a steeldriver on him in act5 norm, used it for...2 or 3 mins and took it back off. for trash you aint making any impact and a 1 hander will kill most trash monsters in 1 blow with vengance and conv anyway. on bosses without the block and res/dr%/sorbs (whatever you choose) from a shield you cant stay in the fray long enough to make an impact.

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Latest Update

finished act 3 and 4 nm tonight. No problems to report, tanked mephy, seal bosses and diablo pretty easily. sporting 13-14k life depending on what druid/barb im running with. Vengance is still a novelty skill and im only really using it against marilyths etc. Haven't had to use it against any pi bosses as I have summons and elemental builds in my party to save my juvs for more major bosses. I doubt i`ll change my equip untill i get full gris, gear seems to be doing just fine as is. merc and me are both 82 now. Merc is still ripping stuff apart in act 5. Should do baal tomorrow night I think and maybe a1 and 2 hell. so next update I should be 90+

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Sounds like you are having too easy of a time, you should go 2h to spice it up.

Ditch the Crushing Blow too.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

just playing with a good group who know the roll of the char they playing. If I drop my cb setup he is gonna be pretty useless on bosses, the speed of vengance is just to slow for boss fights now and any weapon I can use to raise my speed is basicaly cutting my damage in half or less. If a higher speed could be achieved i would sacrafice the damage for speed but it aint worth it at the min. I would actualy consider going 2 handed if I could get the speed up to 4 or 5 fpa but it just wont happen.

I am still hopefull that with a good gear upgrade the vengance will come into play later on in the game. I actually need to test a few things with the speed, one of them being the speed of it in wolf form with a beast rw. I know zeal with a beast zerker just blazes but im not sure if the vengance speed can be rised by changing the attack animation to wolf swinging arm. time and sp will tell. If it works i'll maybe consider doing it in a 2 handed giant thresher and skip the block, chances are it'll be a zerker though.

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Quick update before bed.

caught my wwsin up to the pala tonight and done act 5 nm with him. Started in a 3 man team with a nec druid and me (pala). we lost our necro at the cleft (possibly he was lagging to bad so called it a night im not sure) so it was down to mee and edd on his summon druid.

conviction + light merc cleared the non light immunes and vengance on the champ golems dropped them pretty fast. fanat + edds merc got the ones mine couldn't no problem. duo'd the guardian pretty easily edd using an amp wand on him. once we got to the castle another necro joined us and provided curses and more summons. Much the same thing again in the castle. Sit behind summons and use conv + lr and amp + fanat depending on what was around us. whenever we were lower res'd i would run salvation and if something had conviction i used my own conviction to negate the effects.

The Minions
first wave was no problem, maybe 2 juvs used. second wave was abit of a pain. summons + mercs got it done (a little slower than the rest). The one thing I will say about that one is the bone cages he spawns over and over eventually cause a shit ton of lag that can be quite annoying.
third wave was easy once we got him out of baal's curse range, he just didnt want to move away from him at all.
4th wave was smooth sailing again. the easiest of the lot for sure.
Darkness was pretty smooth too. the ocasional amp + tornadoes biting into my life bulb but nothing to major. having 16k life was a big help obviously though.
Baal was... well, just baal. a breeze compared to darkness. The biggest problem we had was geting him away from his vines (spawned an icon right next to them too and sat behind them for almost 10 mins). Once he was out it was simple. A few times he teled into the center and I had to brave the fana + vines + amp + mana drain attack. That was really harsh but still controled. Was a good 3 man team and a good controlled baal run.

Edd went for some kip after that and I continued on when just-ice came on with his necro. we rn the wps and killed countess, her lower res was really hurting me as im only just hitting max res in hell at the min. 2 dwarf stars and salvation + smite and amp was plenty, kept my res around 60 with lower res on and maxed fire sorc helped alot. I did fear her fire enchant as I was only sporting 4k life when I tackled her but it was fine.
After the countess a druid and a sin that were in act 1 tagged along for andy. tobial spawned extra strong and was hitting pretty hard but it was his lower res and rabies that hurt the most.
Andy was no problem, she seemed to be taking some major chunks from the sin and her poison was pretty rough on both the sin and druid. Got past her without to much trouble though.

The build is going nothing like a standard venger that I know of. Vengance is ok against uniques and phys immunes but its just not good enough against bosses alone. It's very much my own variation with a maxed holy shield after conviction and vengance. Now I'm buffing fanat for another very party friendly aura. I use pretty much every aura and pretty often. Depending on the situation He is an offensive party supporter or a defensive supporter. For bosses he is a crushing blow build at times and a venger at others. I've relly enjoyed him so far but vengance is not a skill I would devote 100 points too. If anything it should be taken to a 60 point build with conviction, vengance and SALVATION puting salvation as a synergie at the same % as conviction or maybe a little higher would be plenty. It is deff a build you need to mix with another.

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Killed hell baal on the pala tonight. long story short, don't make vengance, it's a terrible skill and even worse in hell, it needs to be set to 5fpa, perhaps if terry makes any more changes he can change the animation to something that can hit 5fpa like he did with fclaws using hunger animation. Perhaps making it an 80 point build would help too and using conv/salv/sacrafice as the synergies. The only thing that got me through was swiftly switching to a pure Dr% setup, loading up on mass life charms, and using smite for bosses. I did use vengance one on the baal run in wsk3 against an unbreakable pi though . using conviction and an act 3 merc was pretty cool for a change.

To sum up, dont waste 100 points on this build, dont even waste 40, max conviction is nice to have. the build I would follow for maxed conviction would be.

Maxed conviction
Maxed fanat
Maxed zeal
maxed holy shield
1 in every aura and 1 in conversion

I would carry an all elemental setup and an all phys setup with me. using a weapon with one of each element gem and an ameth in the weapon, full ele set, templars with random facets, griffs with 1 of each facet,and anything else that gives elemental damage and use zeal + conviction with a faith on the merc.

For a phys setup, all Dr% equip, lots of sruching blow and life leech and a heavy damage weap on the merc. Run fanat and use zeal/smite as needed. I`ll maybe try that out later into the season but not right after this one, sanctuary pala is the next one i`ll be doing.

I have a few other builds on the go so I`ll let you know how they turn out when I have time. I`ll maybe update again after hell sammy and LoS.

Next one I write up will be the poison nec, sanctuary paladin or the ww sin.
Thanks for reading.

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Interesting and informative read! Cool

Fired up a Vengence paladin to provide conviction for an elemental party and have been playing him 2H as feasible. So far, most of the early 2h weapons are weak, but on the way to Diablo an Eth GoreRod dropped and that is a ton of fun to use.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

feasible, yes. useful, no. You have lost the one advantage a paladin has (holy shield), this kills your defense and blocking, meaning you are a glass cannon who needs to go toe to toe to deal damage. I'd rather be dealing 1/3 the damage of a 2 hander while having added res/absorbs from shield + skills to boost my attack/conviction and be avoiding most of the incoming attacks. barbs/druids have tons more life than a paladin so they can afford to go 2 handed while leeching life back with big physical damage. You are doing a max of 3 attacks a second with low physical damage providing terrible life steal.

a few points I would have. since you are playing with an elemental party, trash is will be dead before you reach it with conviction running. This means you are running around with a 2 handed weapon when you could have added + skills boosting your auras radius and effectiveness.
Against bosses you cant block and will have lower resistances meaning lower res curse will hurt alot more. you have no option of adding skulls to a shield to provide dr% or gems to provide absorbs. That means you can't spend as much time tanking and keeping the ranged builds out of harms way.
Overall your dps will be alot lower since you will need to step out more often to recover after taking every shot thrown at you. even if you deal 1/4 the damage with a 1 hander you will have easy max block meaning you will take 75% less hits meaning you will last 4 times as long in the fight, while gaining + skills to boost your damage, then couple in added res/dr% from the shield and you take even less damage. Then add in the higer defense meaning you take even less hits. Holy shield is essentialy the paladins lifebuff. He specialises is avoiding hits not taking them. a 2 handed phys zealer would be viable since he would be stealing more life back per hit, still, damage prevention/reduction is the key to a well rounded char. by going 2 handed you are hampering yours and your partys effectiveness

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Yep.
There are a number of things that you aren't considering in your analysis though which change things up.

1. Redemption.
My life bulb can drop awfully fast, faster than life leech can cover, so I have Redemption set as my second hotkey and toggle it mid battle for a "super rejuv" every now and then. Makes life rather exciting too as I am often right on the edge of death's door. Certainly not smart for HC though - which is probably why it isn't considered in your analysis. As a softie though, I don't really care if I die now and then. In this case, I will take fun and excitement over not dying.

2. Party size.
When we are running the full party - ya, stuff dies quickly and I mostly am there to provide a focal point for things to attack and to provide conviction. The HP size of monsters is also notably larger, so my strong attack isn't as strong. When I am solo or in a party of 3 people it is a different ball game and overpowering damage kills monsters before they have much time to do any damage to me.

Unlike you, I also tend to run with random parties rather than your more structured setup of players, so we really are almost playing an entirely different game.

Either way though, early game the weapon dmg from the 2H boost still isn't all that spectacular so it doesn't matter much. It is feasible even if it is weaker than the 1H approach. Don't always have to take the ideal route all the time.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

I would consider 2 handed only if you could get a greater speed by doing so, that would be a nice touch i think

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don't think that could ever be coded.

speed on vengence isn't that bad so far. I tossed on an 80% IAS helm and it works pretty well to speed up an Obedience Hammer.

Then again, I never expect elemental dmg to outperform physical dmg in this mod. Physical damage is King, so if you are playing an elemental character you are starting out gimped.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

i find avg fire damage per sec to be just as useful on certain bosses

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11k-18k dmg with -71% enemy resists is pretty potent at lvl50. There is some value to having a 2H weapon

Oh ya, only have lvl11 vengence, plenty of room to grow.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

I dont dispute the damage at all, I would worry about the lack of blocking and def with such a slow attack and a low level of leech ability though. There is alot more room to play on sc though as losing a char wont potentialy hamper the whole party. thats one thing that i prefer with sc is the more novelty equip choices you can play around with without risk of losing the time you spend building the char. I've always wanted to make a "fury" paladin with beast in a big 2 hander, and the mandatory 1 in every aura to play around with while using zeal. I may even consider doing that on hc at some point

Edit: I already have a sanctuary zealer on the go so i could change to a 2 handed beast later and try it out with the big %damage to undead/demons and added magic damage to bring his damage up to par

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Situtation depending, having overpowering dmg can compensate for the lack of block, etc.

Two examples:

1. I ran General Hatestorm with both my 1h setup and 2h setup. He died so much faster to the 2h dmg that I took a lot less dmg overall and the run was significantly easier. I actually FRAP'd both battles - will try to reduce the video size and post later.

2. Castle. Annoying spiders & liches with their hit and run were giving me a very hard time with 1H and shield. I switched over to my 2h setup and was able to 1 or 2 hit take them down which ended up saving me significant danger over the long run.

With that said - I still don't dispute that 1H/shield is superior, just [a] fun to go 2H now and then and [b] it is actually darn useful now and then.

I have a "Beast" col blade that I am eager to try out on this guy.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Beast runeword is working great on Venger, only issue seems to be resists which are a bit hard to fill out for a paladin. I think that in party play though Beast works great on this guy. I have 5200 life and kick out 16k-30k elemental dmg at a reasonable speed which is boosted by Conviction. Beast works fine with both vengance and zeal, so i can get a nice life leech boost by switching over to zeal

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

not to mention this guy was able to hold hell durry in one spot while I rained meteors on his head....


I love this combo heh