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 Post subject: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Poison received very few changes with this patch other than item balance (end game items generally had their poison toned down) and the very important change of skiller removal (which has a big impact on psn due to the synergy and skill progression).

This has clearly made little impact early game - which was the intent, normal was intended to remain easy - the question is whether they have had an impact late game. I have been considering adjustments to poison to temper its early game dominance, but I worry about what that will do to its end game functionality. We certainly don't need to give poison characters the problem that Bone necros currently have (rox early, sux late).

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:25 pm 
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as can be seen in my screen my rabies was sporting 9xk dmg at normal baal,
im sure it could have been a little higher too had i changed the gloves and made a runeword helm. but as it is to achieve the dmg he was wearing
+3 rabies helm
crescent moon ammy
2x druid rings
+1 armor
+6 rabies weapon i found in wsk is what really buffed his dmg from 60k
and +12% crafted belt

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:06 pm 

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end game necro i think fleshgordon has like 280k strike and 44 nova or such with 12 pierce.

i have 210 strike 33 nova 95 pierce or so with trang some shards and 3 crap psn facets and d web one crafted +1skill6% ring


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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:55 am 
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blinky99 wrote:
end game necro i think fleshgordon has like 280k strike and 44 nova or such with 12 pierce.

i have 210 strike 33 nova 95 pierce or so with trang some shards and 3 crap psn facets and d web one crafted +1skill6% ring

How's that working out for you? Still crushing things like was the case in norm/NM?

Anyone else?

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:45 am 

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i do well up to 4 ppl solo tundra. bosses long as i can heal die prety quick duriel meph diablo. Put an eth in dweb and good to go for chance to hit, though im not sure how it works, does it -50% of target defense before you hit, or take away 50% of their defense for your next hit and so on, i would assume there defense would be 0 after a few hits , even if 1 mil defense after 50% its 500k after one hit or am i doing it wrong?

Changed gear to grif,craft belt -20/+17, +2 -12%psn craft armor, +1 +6% craft ring,and wisp ring, soul drainers [ life drain sucks as* btw lol] and with battle command strike goes up to 219 k and nova 38k , but i loose 10% dr and CBF which seems to suck in tundra as i did a few runs to compare.


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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:55 pm 
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I soloed/duoed whole game with healer(our first char,untwinked). Did Hell Di with 100k ps np. Hardest part though the game was Hell Duriel as I couldn`t hit her at all (13ar)....used nova to kill her and spent 2,5 cube of juvs lol (but past this act).

added:healer out from this mod, so I didn`t try hell anc/baal yet.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:33 am 

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Pretty much every boss that doesn't stay still was killed with poison(rabies) in my HC party. Only exception I believe was normal difficulty in which we mostly used melee. Hell Baal, Samhain and LoS will be done using mostly rabies as well. And no Blue, I do not need to have done it already this patch to know how it'll play out.

Anyone who has played through late game poison builds last patch will have a feel for how easy those bosses will be. Skillers don't even need enter the equation as Hell Samhain and LoS have been done with little to no skillers during previous ladders. The only real change I've seen for poison late game were a few small item tweaks, and some easy +skills off soulstones.

Rabies and Pstrike were already arguably the fastest and safest boss killing skills. The only real contender in overall boss killing speed was a 30-40% CB 6fpa smiter. Still you needed necro amp(90%+) to pierce late game bosses to 0% physical resists, and you had to constantly be in melee range taking heat. I suppose hammers should get an honorable mention here as well, as they were real nasty especially against the act bosses.

To be honest I'm a little skeptical about calling for a nerf to poison after seeing what happened to melee. Without a good bit of testing I'm afraid of seeing another viable build drop off the radar, ready to be replaced by the new flavor of the month. Balancing sure is a bitch.


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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:28 am 
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Quote:
To be honest I'm a little skeptical about calling for a nerf to poison after seeing what happened to melee. Without a good bit of testing I'm afraid of seeing another viable build drop off the radar, ready to be replaced by the new flavor of the month. Balancing sure is a bitch.


shorter duration on the poison skills would help. (wouldn't mean less dps, just that you have to be in the action more. In truth, poisons dps is actually pretty low, its just the nature of "hit once and wait" that makes them so strong.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:33 am 
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drrod wrote:
ready to be replaced by the new flavor of the month. Balancing sure is a bitch.

thorns amp. ya.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:55 pm 

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unless i have good heal i cant hit and run fast enough vs bosses, 22k ar as well with stirke, and "eth" rune [-50% defense]. sam killed me pretty quick even on norm almost, nm havent tried hell got one shotted with bo and a good oak 9k life total max res's, guess i need more fire sorb


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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:23 am 
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Quote:
hell got one shotted with bo and a good oak 9k life
you're base vita nec?


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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:38 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
To be honest I'm a little skeptical about calling for a nerf to poison after seeing what happened to melee. Without a good bit of testing I'm afraid of seeing another viable build drop off the radar, ready to be replaced by the new flavor of the month. Balancing sure is a bitch.


shorter duration on the poison skills would help. (wouldn't mean less dps, just that you have to be in the action more. In truth, poisons dps is actually pretty low, its just the nature of "hit once and wait" that makes them so strong.


I'm gonna disagree with you saying poison dps is low for 2 reasons. 1 reason is the amount of pierce you can get on poison gear to lower the bosses resistances down so low that you can easily take them out, and lower resist just makes this way easier. Only 2 skills in the game breaks any sort of physical resistance, and phys facets dont give -% phys resistance but psn ones do.

Let's compare psn and meteor to melee attacks. against a non-act boss they can be pretty much even depending on the gear. Compare a 50k dmg zeal to a 250k dmg psn strike or a 55k dmg meteor with pierce. That is about even on how fast the boss goes down depending on his immunities.

Against act bosses its the other way around. as it is right now, you need a psn or meteor/blaze char to kill act bosses, which screws over melees really hard.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:50 am 
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100k over 8 seconds is about 11k dps. it is low. Compare to a melee attacking at 5 frames for 10k damage a swing (end of normal you get more damage than that usually)
thats 50k dps.

Yes you have pierce etc but thats comparing it to a melee. If you compare it to any other element it is super low.

My hydra sorc as an example (since apparently they are garbage and the weakest of the sorc builds) has 12k hydra atm. Each head gets about 9 attacks and there are 3 heads per cast. So dps is 3*12k =36k. Thats with unstacked hydras. You can tripple that once they are fully stacked, so that 36k DPS becomes 108kdps. Thats before enchant comes into play too. thats more damage per sec than a poison build gets over full duration at the same level. The reason poison is used so much is you can simply hit, then wait. If you had to apply that poison every 4 seconds then the builds become a little harder to play and the majority of noobs move on to something else thats easy to play.

just look at venom, you can hit 10k venom easily (thats 20k DPS) so the damage is around the same as any other poison build. However you need to apply that poison constantly so the majority of people won't use venom even though it generally has way more DPS capability than any other type of poison.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:07 am 

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with gear i have 350 vit 123 dex and 70 unused stat points, are you saying i should add more dex or vit? my block is 35% if i put rest into it itd be around 65% maybe higher assuming darkforce. But i run all the time so block is 1/3 so like 12% as of now.

so 140 life [maybe 270 higher with bo oak]vs 12% higher block while running or 30% higher block when walking.


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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:19 am 
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Quote:
The reason poison is used so much is you can simply hit, then wait. If you had to apply that poison every 4 seconds then the builds become a little harder to play and the majority of noobs move on to something else thats easy to play.
With 4secs bosses would be poisoned for like 2 secs at most, for rabies that could be ok, zons also, dunno about psn necs, maybe ok too if they don't run for boss from side tank stands.
Quote:
My hydra sorc as an example
VS trash or bosses? for trash ofc psn isn't the best, for bosses is far more superior than anything else, maybe meteo can be the same. That's because Ele abs on bosses hurt caster more than psn length reduction, and you don't worry about counters, psn ama don't even have to hit boss to apply dmg, just aim near and hit with light jav every 15secs.


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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:29 am 
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how much absorb are bosses getting? is that on that unique charm too?

*edit* - answered my own question. Good lord, some crazy values in there!

Diablo:
res-pois-len 50 50 abs-fire% 60 60 abs-cold% 50 50 abs-ltng% 50 50 red-dmg% 50 50

Ya, numbers like that will make a huge impact on other damage sources and give poison a big advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:23 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
100k over 8 seconds is about 11k dps. it is low. Compare to a melee attacking at 5 frames for 10k damage a swing (end of normal you get more damage than that usually)
thats 50k dps.

Yes you have pierce etc but thats comparing it to a melee. If you compare it to any other element it is super low.

My hydra sorc as an example (since apparently they are garbage and the weakest of the sorc builds) has 12k hydra atm. Each head gets about 9 attacks and there are 3 heads per cast. So dps is 3*12k =36k. Thats with unstacked hydras. You can tripple that once they are fully stacked, so that 36k DPS becomes 108kdps. Thats before enchant comes into play too. thats more damage per sec than a poison build gets over full duration at the same level. The reason poison is used so much is you can simply hit, then wait. If you had to apply that poison every 4 seconds then the builds become a little harder to play and the majority of noobs move on to something else thats easy to play.

just look at venom, you can hit 10k venom easily (thats 20k DPS) so the damage is around the same as any other poison build. However you need to apply that poison constantly so the majority of people won't use venom even though it generally has way more DPS capability than any other type of poison.


Hmm theres truth here, however,

blue_myriddn wrote:
how much absorb are bosses getting? is that on that unique charm too?

*edit* - answered my own question. Good lord, some crazy values in there!

Diablo:
res-pois-len 50 50 abs-fire% 60 60 abs-cold% 50 50 abs-ltng% 50 50 red-dmg% 50 50

Ya, numbers like that will make a huge impact on other damage sources and give poison a big advantage.


Basically theres no psn absorb, sure tehres psn length reduced by xx or whatever, but, the fact of the matter is, for bosses, psn is boss because the goddamn counters dont slay you.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:31 am 
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but, the fact of the matter is, for bosses, psn is boss because the goddamn counters dont slay you.


lowering the duration means you have to hit more often, thus incresing counters and risk of going in close to the boss. The exception is a poizon who never has to get close anyway.

There is no issue with counters from hydra, you just cast them away from the rest of the team so the counters dont head towards them. The hydra sorc pretty much never ever gets hit by counters (including dflight)

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:33 am 
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PureRage-DoD wrote:
Quote:
but, the fact of the matter is, for bosses, psn is boss because the goddamn counters dont slay you.


lowering the duration means you have to hit more often, thus incresing counters and risk of going in close to the boss. The exception is a poizon who never has to get close anyway.

There is no issue with counters from hydra, you just cast them away from the rest of the team so the counters dont head towards them. The hydra sorc pretty much never ever gets hit by counters (including dflight)


Yea lowering psn duration is a good way to balance it. But if we do that then we have to address meteor and hydra sorc's, because all of a sudden all the psn necros and zons will turn into fire sorcs.

Once we accomplish this then no one will be ever able to kill bosses and our job is complete.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:54 am 
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Rasta wrote:
Yea lowering psn duration is a good way to balance it.

I really disagree. I think that will simply make the skill not very fun to play. The hit and run aspect is what makes the build distinctive.

Undoing the overbuffs to bosses is the right path here, similar to what needs to be done for melee. Then you can drop the psn dmg down a bit and have similar dmg patterns for the various elements.

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 Post subject: Re: How is end game poison?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:06 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
Rasta wrote:
Yea lowering psn duration is a good way to balance it.

I really disagree. I think that will simply make the skill not very fun to play. The hit and run aspect is what makes the build distinctive.

Undoing the overbuffs to bosses is the right path here, similar to what needs to be done for melee. Then you can drop the psn dmg down a bit and have similar dmg patterns for the various elements.


I like this.


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