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 Post subject: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:56 am 
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There are so many options for defence I can't decide which way to go. I suppose WC for defence is the best considering it helps the entire party. But other than that, BO and Inc Stam where should my points go?


Last edited by stars on Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:21 am 
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max a mastery and maybe conc. If you are going ww then skip increased speed, your walk speed gets boosted and you ww out of range way to fast. Max block is obviously a massive help but for that you will need to invest in dex (perhaps put ko runes in weapons too). Make a shield for damage reduction%, and one shield for each elemental absorb.

You wont be great as a tank outside of NM on a wc barb as gear will have to be focused on fcr and + skills. I would instead, 1 point it get a highly defensive setup. Use wc for stunning trash mobs for your team and you have a good setup already for tanking bosses.

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:45 am 
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Oh sorry when I said wc I just meant the wc option of defence.

I'm think of using conc but not sure if I need to max it.

Also I don't know the end game weapons well enough to know which way to go with mastery. I assume Mace is the best option for 1 handers.

so far I'm thinking.

20 Inc Stam
20 BO
20 Shout
1 conc?
20 Mastery

Then I am slightly lost. Dmg and IAS will help considering I'll be able to leach faster.

Also I can increase defence in other areas, will that help with my chance to block?


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:51 am 
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I wouldn't max shout myself. Defence has very bad deminishing returns. The "Attacker vs Defender" (AvD formula) is based largely on level. It's poor design by blizzard.

As an example, I had around 100k def with my pally last season, I pushed it to 200k with frozen armor, some def charms and high level shout. The diff in chance to be hit was only 7-8%. Damage negation is the best route. PDR/MDR, absorbs and damage resist. That along with simply staying close to the boss but moving around to avoid the stacked elemental attacks etc. You should be fine. (remember to walk and not run)

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:09 am 

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I have also question about barb.
I'm planin to make ww tank barb, and my question is what should i max after maxing leap bash and ww?? or did i just screwd my build maxing them??


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:46 am 
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should max inc stamina and bo asap. Those should be maxed first really.

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:30 am 
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If you want a pure tank Barb, maxing shout over concentrate is not in your best interest. You'll be tanking anything that matter, so your parties defense is invalid. Concentrate gives you bonus damage & AR, in addition defense. You're much better off maxing Concentrate over Shout, imo.

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:47 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
should max inc stamina and bo asap. Those should be maxed first really.

thanx for nice tip. Also is weapon mastery any usefull for ww barb??


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:55 am 
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yes, for the critical strike and attack rating boost.

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:22 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
yes, for the critical strike and attack rating boost.

hmmm what will be best end game weapon for ww barb? mace?? or polearm??
And do u mayby remeber cos once i found somwhere on forum tables of influence DR and MDR i think it was on Diablo. Anyway is it still anywhere??


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:02 am 
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PDR/MDR is great, you get it on iron skin and natural res + diamonds in armor/helm and many other items.
Brevan has a general rule for PDR/MDR. It should be about 10 times the act you are in.

Weapon choice is up to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:54 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
PDR/MDR is great, you get it on iron skin and natural res + diamonds in armor/helm and many other items.
Brevan has a general rule for PDR/MDR. It should be about 10 times the act you are in.

Weapon choice is up to you.

so formula is example a5:
Code:
[OVERAL DR]*[10]*[5]

If yes i would like to know how much dmg is Diablo dealing cos i have round 80DR and MDR so it gives 3200 it is more than i have HP overal :P


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:57 am 
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No, you missunderstand.

The recomended MDP/PDR is the act number *10.

Ie. act 3 * 10 = 30 MDR/PDR will negate most of the damage from mobs

act 5 * 10 = 50 MDR/PDR will negate most damage.

Diablos damage is high because most of his attacks are damage over time fire patches. That damage is applied 25 times a second, and MDR applies to each of those 25 hits. Ie. 2500 damage over 1 second = 100 damage 25 times a sec. 100 MDR will completely negate that 2500 damage per second.

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:14 pm 
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An easier general rule to explain to people is to just have DR/MDR equal to their level. That works fine for Norm and NM, but in Hell they would have to either switch to dr% or attempt to get their DR/MDR equal to double their level. Might want to remind people that champs and other stronger-than-trash monsters will still hurt them.

e.g. 20DR/MDR by end A1 and start A2 is pretty good, and 60DR/MDR is nice by middle or end of A5.

Regarding a tank barb, don't forget to consider BattleCry (at high level this can significantly amplify your DR, and removing all enemy defence is pretty handy too). However, Weakness curse is better unless you intend to get BCry around level 35. With high BO and a very large Mana pool, you might find some use from charges of level 1 EnergyShield while using lots of manasteal in your gear. EShield is another good way of amplifying your DR/MDR, and would stack multiplicatively with BCry (e.g. if you have 100 DR, 30%ES, and 50%Weak from BCry or Weakness, then you would take 1 HP loss from an attack of about 286). Since you won't have Telekinesis to synergize ES, then you will run out of mana quickly at 30%ES unless you have a pretty large manapool (2k?) and plenty of mana steal (30%?). Note that the %Weakness from BCry or Weakness curse isn't very effective against monsters that are buffed by Might, Fanat, ExtraStrong mod, or similar, because all you do is reduce their buff from around +200%Dmg to +150%Dmg.

Regarding the questions in your PM - What weapon and what skill - I don't think there is much difference. I didn't respond by PM since the answer is relevant to this thread, and possibly to anyone that reads it. Concentrate helps your defence, but defence has dimishing returns, and Concentrate doesn't boost your defence by a lot anyways (if you already have 500%EDef from passives, shouts, FrozenArmor, etc, then another 100%-200% isn't that big a deal). Concentrate would probably still be an ideal skill to use though, since you'll be tanking plenty of IM areas, and Concentrate gives you a lot of control about whether to attack while IM'd or not. Your weapon is barely relevant to a tanking character. I almost never put more than 1 point into masteries when making a barb, but I rarely play traditional barbs too. In your case, where Concentrate attacks relatively slowly, the %CStrike would be pretty nice, so choose any weapon you like and max that mastery. Consider reviewing the changes to uniques, and see if there is any uniques or runewords where that weapon provides lots of tanking options. For example, your build might like "Lawbringer" for decrep and non-phys dmg, BlackleachBlade for ctc Weakness, or swords because you can always swap in a shield, weapons that revive lots of tanking critters (i.e. melee units), weapons with large amounts of slow (this can be particularly effective), etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:32 pm 
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So from what I gather, beyond BO and Inc stam. The other skills are pretty much player choice and don't make too much of a difference as long as you get your defense high enough.

I would like to max block and up my dr % so I will find a way to go this route.


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:20 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
I wouldn't max shout myself. Defence has very bad deminishing returns. The "Attacker vs Defender" (AvD formula) is based largely on level. It's poor design by blizzard.

As an example, I had around 100k def with my pally last season, I pushed it to 200k with frozen armor, some def charms and high level shout. The diff in chance to be hit was only 7-8%. Damage negation is the best route. PDR/MDR, absorbs and damage resist. That along with simply staying close to the boss but moving around to avoid the stacked elemental attacks etc. You should be fine. (remember to walk and not run)
Not this sh*t again. Basic maths, too much to ask? Effective life boost is a linear function of defense, regardless of character level, monster level or monster attack.It is no less diminishing than each extra point in vitality or each extra life point on a charm.


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:27 pm 
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xarthaz wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
I wouldn't max shout myself. Defence has very bad deminishing returns. The "Attacker vs Defender" (AvD formula) is based largely on level. It's poor design by blizzard.

As an example, I had around 100k def with my pally last season, I pushed it to 200k with frozen armor, some def charms and high level shout. The diff in chance to be hit was only 7-8%. Damage negation is the best route. PDR/MDR, absorbs and damage resist. That along with simply staying close to the boss but moving around to avoid the stacked elemental attacks etc. You should be fine. (remember to walk and not run)
Not this sh*t again. Basic maths, too much to ask? Effective life boost is a linear function of defense, regardless of character level, monster level or monster attack.It is no less diminishing than each extra point in vitality or each extra life point on a charm.


What are you talking about? the diff between 100k def and 200kdef is about 7-8% chance to hit. I said defence has bad deminishing returns, not its effect. Ie, 50k def you have 30% chance to be hit, 100k def you have 25% chance to be hit, 200k def you have 17% chance to be hit. The returns get very small and you need to put a lot of effort to get such high defence. Please don't try to explain effective life to me, i'm playing a hc melee zon atm without buffs

many points
1: 20 points for maybe a 4-5% less chance to be hit in hell is not worth a thing
2: Iron skin gives PDR with each point along with defence. You do realise that general trash in hell will deal little more than 200 damage per hit. 20 PDR from the points in iron skin over shout is like having 10% damage reduction (against these small hits) AND is providing defence boost
3: There are no deminishing returns with vitality or life because they are linear. Defence is based on attackers level, defenders level, attackers AR and defenders def. The major part of the equation is the attacker vs defender level. not the defence and attack rating.

Basic mechanics, too much to ask?

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:07 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
xarthaz wrote:
PureRage-DoD wrote:
I wouldn't max shout myself. Defence has very bad deminishing returns. The "Attacker vs Defender" (AvD formula) is based largely on level. It's poor design by blizzard.

As an example, I had around 100k def with my pally last season, I pushed it to 200k with frozen armor, some def charms and high level shout. The diff in chance to be hit was only 7-8%. Damage negation is the best route. PDR/MDR, absorbs and damage resist. That along with simply staying close to the boss but moving around to avoid the stacked elemental attacks etc. You should be fine. (remember to walk and not run)
Not this sh*t again. Basic maths, too much to ask? Effective life boost is a linear function of defense, regardless of character level, monster level or monster attack.It is no less diminishing than each extra point in vitality or each extra life point on a charm.


What are you talking about? the diff between 100k def and 200kdef is about 7-8% chance to hit. I said defence has bad deminishing returns, not its effect. Ie, 50k def you have 30% chance to be hit, 100k def you have 25% chance to be hit, 200k def you have 17% chance to be hit. The returns get very small and you need to put a lot of effort to get such high defence. Please don't try to explain effective life to me, i'm playing a hc melee zon atm without buffs

many points
1: 20 points for maybe a 4-5% less chance to be hit in hell is not worth a thing
2: Iron skin gives PDR with each point along with defence. You do realise that general trash in hell will deal little more than 200 damage per hit. 20 PDR from the points in iron skin over shout is like having 10% damage reduction (against these small hits) AND is providing defence boost
3: There are no deminishing returns with vitality or life because they are linear. Defence is based on attackers level, defenders level, attackers AR and defenders def. The major part of the equation is the attacker vs defender level. not the defence and attack rating.

Basic mechanics, too much to ask?
Chance to be Hit = 100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)

Effective life multiplier achieved by defense is the inverse of chance to be hit(life=base life*(1/chance to be hit))
DR has the power of -1 in the original formula, but as the entire formula is inversed when we look at the life multiplier, its power is 1, aka it is linearly related to effective life multiplier of defense.

As an example, the life multiplier of a lvl 90 character facing off against a lvl 85 doom knight(note the AR is from unmodified LOD) as a function of defense:
Image
f(x)=1/(2*(5900/(5900+x))*(85/(85+90)))

Your argumentation in relation to defense skills is a matter of value judgements and hence is not a subject of debate, due to undefined premises.


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:18 pm 
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again, about 100k defence is the breakoff point here,anything overthat is just a waste of time and effort. You are using unmodified numbers as an example.

you are using level90 char leveland 85 doom knight. Doom knights here are a caster type and have low attack rating. level 85 doom knights occurs in NM (roughly) while player level90is a full difficulty further on.

If you compare vanillas monlvl.txt you willsee that the multipliers for all thebasemonster stats (ar/def/life) are much much higher.
Vanilla values for a level70monster are something like 300% for vanilla, here they are 1500%
I'm not disputing the fact that def is very important, i'm saying that maxing shout willreduce the chance to be hit by a very low % for a 20point investment. Also, you should take alook at monprop.txt asmany enemys have -enemy def% and ITD.

I just raised my melee zons def from 12k to 23k last night and her chance to be hit by an appropriate level enemy went from 22% to 16%. I could have used rubys instead of diamonds for 32% hp instead for amuch bigger boost. However, i also raised her PDR and MDR to 128 and 144 respectively. The generaldamage a trash mob willdeal in hell is around 200 so I have essentially given her 75% phys res even before her actual damage resist comes into play and reduces it further. 144 MDR is a huge amount and renders her immune to all elemental damage part frommeteor impacts. Thats alot stronger than a small boost toadefence that has no value against elementalspells.

You dont have to take my word for it, just go and test it on single player.

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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:03 pm 
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What equip do you go for when you are boosting MDR to such a high level?


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:12 pm 
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stars wrote:
What equip do you go for when you are boosting MDR to such a high level?

A Moonstone diamond will give you 16 mdr/pdr. Quad socket both your armor and helm with that and you are at 8x16 = 128. I would assume that is the route he is taking.

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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:30 pm 
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well kinda, I crafted a safety armor and it came out with 21 PDR and 10 MDR and 407%ed. I put 4 ms diamonds in it to push its defence to 3700+ and its PDR to 85 and MDR to 74.
I have 2 safety rings for vita and res. + some hp on each one. One has 12 PDR and 10 MDR and one has 11 PDR and 11 MDR (I think, its roughly right)
Vamp gaze for 10%dr with a moonstone diamond for 36 MDR and 16 PDR, string for 8 MDR and 4 mdr/pdr from my frozen armor proc.

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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Ahh safety rings now that's a good idea.

I could prob do the same with a shield since my mid level shield right now is still sigons. All good ideas thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Strict Tank Barb
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:50 am 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
again, about 100k defence is the breakoff point here,anything overthat is just a waste of time and effort. You are using unmodified numbers as an example.

you are using level90 char leveland 85 doom knight. Doom knights here are a caster type and have low attack rating. level 85 doom knights occurs in NM (roughly) while player level90is a full difficulty further on.

If you compare vanillas monlvl.txt you willsee that the multipliers for all thebasemonster stats (ar/def/life) are much much higher.
Vanilla values for a level70monster are something like 300% for vanilla, here they are 1500%
I'm not disputing the fact that def is very important, i'm saying that maxing shout willreduce the chance to be hit by a very low % for a 20point investment. Also, you should take alook at monprop.txt asmany enemys have -enemy def% and ITD.

I just raised my melee zons def from 12k to 23k last night and her chance to be hit by an appropriate level enemy went from 22% to 16%. I could have used rubys instead of diamonds for 32% hp instead for amuch bigger boost. However, i also raised her PDR and MDR to 128 and 144 respectively. The generaldamage a trash mob willdeal in hell is around 200 so I have essentially given her 75% phys res even before her actual damage resist comes into play and reduces it further. 144 MDR is a huge amount and renders her immune to all elemental damage part frommeteor impacts. Thats alot stronger than a small boost toadefence that has no value against elementalspells.

You dont have to take my word for it, just go and test it on single player.
yeah the break up point at 100k.. because there the effective multiplier would be 20, aka 5% chance to hit so further defense doesnt matter..

The main point is that the inverse of chance to hit is what shows the effective life boost: in your case the effective life gained by def would be 0.22/0.16=37% so more than rubies(though less universal )


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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:15 am 
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Hey all, I just installed HU, and I was looking to build a Tanking Barbarian using Concentrate.

What skills should I use for a low level barb? I am currently using Double Swing because it's very usefull to clear lots of trashes. There's 8 points in there already...

Finaly... when the time comes to max my skills... Should I max Conc as well as Berserk and Stun (Their syns)? What would my skill tree look like end-game...?

Thanks for reading and helping me out build a good trank :)


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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:32 am 
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I was thinking maybe WW is more reliable than Conc...?


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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:27 pm 
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If a barb is using Conc will this negate blocking? Or does it just not show the animation for block since your attack is uninterrupted?


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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Also, how many base points in dex should be invested into a barb to reach max block end game? I'm being cautious with how many points to put into dex due to not knowing how much I'll need end game.


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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:48 pm 
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For my fclaw bear, in a 4sock crafted helm, how do you guys feel about having 2 diamonds, 1 ruby, and 1 skull? Usually I go for all diamonds, but just curious what you guys think of that idea..

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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:10 pm 
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my take with mdr/pdr is that you either go 100% or you don't go at all. If I recall, the benefits of a little mdr/pdr isn't much compared to the benefits of a LOT of mdr/pdr.

So my vote would be go all rubies or all diamonds, but don't mix and match. Save the skulls for your death crafts ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:11 pm 
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Legend wrote:
I was thinking maybe WW is more reliable than Conc...?

The problem with WW is that it moves the boss around a lot, and that can be a problem. My merc gets himself killed 10x faster when I WW compared to using a face to face skill like conc/frenzy, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Tank Talk
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:25 pm 
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blue_myriddn wrote:
my take with mdr/pdr is that you either go 100% or you don't go at all. If I recall, the benefits of a little mdr/pdr isn't much compared to the benefits of a LOT of mdr/pdr.

So my vote would be go all rubies or all diamonds, but don't mix and match. Save the skulls for your death crafts ;)


thanks blue ^^

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