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 Post subject: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:05 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:57 pm
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Hello. I'm new to HU. I was wondering if anyone could give me a quick breakdown of the role of these summons (before I waste my spec). I'm currently working on a poisonmancer, but 1 damage type makes me pretty useless in hell. In vanilla, I've used clay golem to some success because of his hp and slow. Since poison is only a 60 point build (plus 10-15 for LR/prereqs), I have about 15-20 points to burn. I'm thinking a nasty golem might do the trick for those poison-immune monsters.

I know in HU the golems have been tweaked, and I noticed that summon resist is gone and replaced with spirit blades. But I have no idea what's good, what will get 1 shot, what's better for HU bosses, etc. So it's pretty important for me to know the usage, effectiveness and scaling of these summons. (Also, I'm assuming a death knight is just a super-skeleton?)

Can anyone give me advice on what situations each would be useful? Alternatively, is there a better way for a poisonmancer to take out poison immunes?


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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:29 pm 
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The best way to take out Poison immunes is to Lower Resist them or to get some party members. :)

I would probably max Lower Resist and something useful. Blades are used as 1-point-wonders, they are good to keep a boss in one place because of their low cooldown. Golems are good as additional tanks. I'd put 1 point into every golem, +skills will get them to an acceptable level and in boss fights you need the clay golem only anyway.
Not sure what else to max; bone armor or wall (people say this is useless, but I like it a lot) perhaps for some defense, or one of the summons (skellies, Death Knight). It's up to you :) You have some time to decide anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:57 pm
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Shantu wrote:
The best way to take out Poison immunes is to Lower Resist them or to get some party members. :)

I would probably max Lower Resist and something useful. Blades are used as 1-point-wonders, they are good to keep a boss in one place because of their low cooldown. Golems are good as additional tanks. I'd put 1 point into every golem, +skills will get them to an acceptable level and in boss fights you need the clay golem only anyway.
Not sure what else to max; bone armor or wall (people say this is useless, but I like it a lot) perhaps for some defense, or one of the summons (skellies, Death Knight). It's up to you :) You have some time to decide anyway.


Ok, well there's no point in maxing lower resist because at -50% you can break 110% and even at -86% you still can't break 120% mobs. Skills can definitely be spent better elsewhere.

I don't see the logic behind putting 1 point in every golem. Can you explain why I need all the golems? Also, why is clay golem better than the others for boss? According to the spreadsheet the force golem has more life (quite different than in vanilla, more damage, and frenzy). Is the slow really that important?

One more thing: is there any viability to using some sort of weapon (bow? dagger? other?) and meleemancing my way through poison immunes?


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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:39 pm 
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yes the slow is important, yes u can have all 4 golems at the same time for trash and yes you will want that extra 30% pierce. thats 5 facets worth of pierce for free

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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:41 pm 
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You playing single player or multiplayer? Makes a significant difference on how things will work out as this is a team oriented mod.

Ahhmyface wrote:
Ok, well there's no point in maxing lower resist because at -50% you can break 110% and even at -86% you still can't break 120% mobs. Skills can definitely be spent better elsewhere.


I wonder if the new patch will change that. Here are the new Lower Resist progressions:
http://blue.arimyth.com/patch.html wrote:
Lower Resist now starts at 25% pierce, gains 1% pierce per hard point, and 1% pierce per 4 soft points


Ahhmyface wrote:
I don't see the logic behind putting 1 point in every golem. Can you explain why I need all the golems? Also, why is clay golem better than the others for boss? According to the spreadsheet the force golem has more life (quite different than in vanilla, more damage, and frenzy). Is the slow really that important?


Slow really is that important. You probably don't need ALL the golems, Iron and clay seem to be the big damage dealer. Especially with their new tweaked AI, an Iron Golem supported by Amp may be a viable way for psn necros to deal with PI monsters. Don't forget a strong merc, that is another good way to deal with PI.

Ahhmyface wrote:
One more thing: is there any viability to using some sort of weapon (bow? dagger? other?) and meleemancing my way through poison immunes?


Give it a whirl. Bone armor boosts damage and when using a dagger, necros get a signifcant damage boost (passive wpn mastery type effect). If you can get the unique charm from samhiem, you can use the oskill Zeal. I wouldn't expect great things though.

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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:08 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:57 pm
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blue_myriddn wrote:
You playing single player or multiplayer? Makes a significant difference on how things will work out as this is a team oriented mod.


I am soloing through multi-player at the moment. But I do plan to group for act bosses and/or when the going gets tough. So far I have been fine on my own (lvl 21).

blue_myriddn wrote:
I wonder if the new patch will change that. Here are the new Lower Resist progressions:
http://blue.arimyth.com/patch.html wrote:
Lower Resist now starts at 25% pierce, gains 1% pierce per hard point, and 1% pierce per 4 soft points


I'm assuming by that low value that means the pierce on immunity is no longer multiplied by 0.2? eg. lvl 20 LR = 25% pierce + 20*1% = 40%. On a 125% mob, 125-40 = 85% Right?

blue_myriddn wrote:
Slow really is that important. You probably don't need ALL the golems, Iron and clay seem to be the big damage dealer. Especially with their new tweaked AI, an Iron Golem supported by Amp may be a viable way for psn necros to deal with PI monsters. Don't forget a strong merc, that is another good way to deal with PI.


Before this thread, I had no idea I could even use multiple golems at the same time. That's definitely an argument for putting at least one point in each. But in regards to damage, according to the spreadsheet at http://blue.arimyth.com/Necromancer.xls the force golem does the most, not even including frenzy. Unless thorns is a big deal? Or is it the item that you make it with that gives it big damage? How the hell does clay do big damage lol?


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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:29 pm 
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As far as I know, -resists still work at 1/5th value against immune monsters. Would surprise and disturb me if this was changed as it would make end game significantly easier.

Thorns is pretty notable, but I am just speaking from some (now rather dated) experience with golems and my iron golem always seemed most effective. To be honest though, that could have all changed with this patch and Force golems may be great dmg dealers now a days.

Clay doesn't do hardly any damage, but slow is that important for boss battles. Decrep/Clay is a winner combination for any team struggling to defeat a boss. I strongly recommend that as a technique when you face Dury/Meph/Diablo. If your clay is too weak though, he will just insta-die before getting a hit in and then you don't get a slow. I would often keep some +clay golem gear around for tough boss fights just to boost him up a bit even if it meant less dmg dealt by myself. Most HU boss fights are marathons and not sprints.

speaking of slow - I hope you are using decrep/LR in combination with your psn strike. Here is a video illustrating how to swap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTpOKwNbz1Q Since the dmg of the psn is determined at the moment of impact, you only need to have LR on the monster at the moment you strike him. For the rest of the time he should be decrep'd or amp'd

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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:18 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:57 pm
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blue_myriddn wrote:
As far as I know, -resists still work at 1/5th value against immune monsters. Would surprise and disturb me if this was changed as it would make end game significantly easier.


Well, then that change is a major nerf. Assuming I put 20 base points into LR, and then have another +20 from items, that brings the total to: 25+(20*1)+(20/4)=44%. 44% is less than a level 4 LR under the old system. 44%/5 is less than 10%, so it won't be able to break immunity on... well, anything.

blue_myriddn wrote:
speaking of slow - I hope you are using decrep/LR in combination with your psn strike. Here is a video illustrating how to swap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTpOKwNbz1Q Since the dmg of the psn is determined at the moment of impact, you only need to have LR on the monster at the moment you strike him. For the rest of the time he should be decrep'd or amp'd


No, I haven't been, since I'm only 21 :p And I'm not sure when this would be valuable. I'm anticipating using poison nova/explosion a lot more than strike, and with short durations on both, I can't see a decrep cast making it in. But we'll see how strong strike is comparatively in HU. In original it just wasn't worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:03 pm 
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I wouldn't use those spreadsheets anymore; they were made last patch, and some info might be outdated in them. I won't update them anymore either, I am working on something far better. :)
By the way, Level 20 LR lowers resists by 50%, so you get 1,25 per hard point, not 1. (I suppose you get 1.25/4 soft points too)

Also, this is why you need a team, to kill what you cannot kill.


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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:35 pm 

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Well, then that change is a major nerf. Assuming I put 20 base points into LR, and then have another +20 from items, that brings the total to: 25+(20*1)+(20/4)=44%. 44% is less than a level 4 LR under the old system. 44%/5 is less than 10%, so it won't be able to break immunity on... well, anything.

That is 50% :D

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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:45 pm 
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Ahhmyface wrote:
No, I haven't been, since I'm only 21 :p And I'm not sure when this would be valuable. I'm anticipating using poison nova/explosion a lot more than strike, and with short durations on both, I can't see a decrep cast making it in. But we'll see how strong strike is comparatively in HU. In original it just wasn't worth it.


True - I forgot you were lvl21 :)

pstrike rocks both in HU and in b.net. On b.net though it just was overshadowed by so many skills that rocked much harder that you didn't notice. Here though it really shines with the ability to do absolutely massive amounts of dmg. Works great against big targets.

I really should write a psn strike guide...

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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:54 pm 
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BaLooB33R wrote:
Well, then that change is a major nerf. Assuming I put 20 base points into LR, and then have another +20 from items, that brings the total to: 25+(20*1)+(20/4)=44%. 44% is less than a level 4 LR under the old system. 44%/5 is less than 10%, so it won't be able to break immunity on... well, anything.

That is 50% :D


no you get 25+((1*blvl)+(lvl/4))
That formula gives 1 pierce per hard point and 1 pierce per 4 skill levels. so every 4 hard points, you get 5% pierce. your formula is this:

25+(20*1)+(20/4)
It actually works like this:
25+(20*1)+(40/4)
= 55% skill pierce
55/5 = 11 so it will break any resist up to 110.

Have you checked the resists in monstats.txt btw?

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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:29 pm 

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PureRage-DoD wrote:
BaLooB33R wrote:
Well, then that change is a major nerf. Assuming I put 20 base points into LR, and then have another +20 from items, that brings the total to: 25+(20*1)+(20/4)=44%. 44% is less than a level 4 LR under the old system. 44%/5 is less than 10%, so it won't be able to break immunity on... well, anything.

That is 50% :D


no you get 25+((1*blvl)+(lvl/4))
That formula gives 1 pierce per hard point and 1 pierce per 4 skill levels. so every 4 hard points, you get 5% pierce. your formula is this:

25+(20*1)+(20/4)
It actually works like this:
25+(20*1)+(40/4)
= 55% skill pierce
55/5 = 11 so it will break any resist up to 110.

Have you checked the resists in monstats.txt btw?


I've looked at the monstats.txt from that "runetest.zip" file, but I think that's for single player. I was checking out the resists when deciding what character to play. There's quite a lot of high poison resist out there. And quite a lot of immunes. If multiplayer has even higher resists, then I question the utility of such a spell if it can't be used to break immunities. Necros need to invest a good 30 hard points in the curse tree, plus another 20 soft, just to break the 110 mobs, and theres many creatures that the points will be ineffective on.

In fact, I think it makes a lot more sense to invest those points in different damage type than bother barely breaking immunity for a few mobs. With 30 points you could do a half-assed bone complement, or do a nice job with summons. Ugh. Too late for me tho.


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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:09 pm 
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then its a good thing 50% isnt immune

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 Post subject: Re: Necromancer golems/blades
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:37 am 
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Your different damage types won't make a scratch in monsters because your items are not focused on it. I mean -resists, +skills, and the like.
Really, this is NOT a solo mod, so you will need party members anyway. Why struggle with a second damage type when you can have 3 other people obliterating that monster? Also, even if you just break an immunity, your passive pierce from items will bring the monsta close to 0, which means you will do full damage or even more, depending on your equipment.
Don't forget either that LR increases your AND your party members' damage, and helps vs non-immune mobs too.


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