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 Post subject: Thorns
PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:06 pm
Posts: 110
Hail HU community, i've got some questions about a Thorns paladin.

What a Thorns Build would look like? how much Str/Vit to be optimal? early/late game gear? Is it viable?

Also, should i avoid damage reduction or is Thorns applie before DR?

Thanks,

Overkill

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 Post subject: Re: Thorns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:28 am
Posts: 1113
Location: Vancouver, BC
Just searching the forum for "Thorns" gives over a hundred posts, and while most of them aren't relevant, it doesn't take long to skim them and find some of your information. There's even an entire thread regarding the Inquisitor Paladin

For the questions you asked:
- Most thorns gear doesn't have high requirements, so you can go all-vita if you want (doesn't really matter though, unless you routinely survive battles with less than 1k life).
- Late game gear should emphasize absorbs and Amp curse, so Blackhorns hat, Hellmouth guants, Glassglare armor, Stormwalk or Wartrav boots, Atma ammy, etc. If you feel like micromanaging your absorbs then I'm sure you could get a bit more thorns% by swapping out absorbs in certain areas.
- Thorns only does damage based on how much life you lost, so dr%, dr, EShield, and BoneArmor will all reduce your flagellatory attack.

To quickly restate some of the stuff said in the past:
1) Barbs make decent Thorns builds because of:
1.1) High life skills
1.2) Taunt skill to cause creatures to attack you
1.3) Berzerk skill to reduce defence to zero
1.4) FindItem skill to get more pots (Champs are awsome)
1.5) Dual-wield SuicideBranch for 6000% thorns at lvl 45, and they can use Lacerator for a decent source of Amp while keeping 1500% thorns.
1.6) No pets (they'd just prevent monsters from attacking you)

2) The build isn't viable in Hell, since the global phys res of creatures is very hard for the build to overcome (Amp helps, but it's still nothing great). Another problem is the emphasis on Absorbs to keep you alive. Almost everything you wear to improve your absorbs or give you Amp reduces your thorns% output. In the end you end up a very durable but fairly ineffective Cheerleader. Without the Absorbs, you die too fast to elemental damage to kill things via their physical damage.

3) The build does significantly poorer in multiplayer, since fewer creatures attack you, and their life increases enough that they no longer kill themselves efficiently (There's a point where healing pots just can't keep up anymore). This reduces you to a BO and FindItem character, which is why I refer to my barb as a Cheerleader (two SBranches even look kinda like batons). That's actually still pretty great party support, but it's hard to get more boring than that.

4) The build rocks some bosses like Tobial (you have to back off on the killing blow or you kill the portal), Dury, Mephy, etc (Any boss that likes to attack a lot)

As a last point that I don't think I've mentioned before, I find that Thorns barbs are pretty great as a gold-find character. Running NM Leoric is quite fast (Amp him + he Amps you = he KOs himself in about 3-5 attacks), and it's not impossible for him to drop almost 1M gold per pile when you hork him with a couple GlitteringSun swords. My thorns barb used a few Wirt jewels in his gear for kicks, so his typical non-switch gf/mf was still around 400% I think


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 Post subject: Re: Thorns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:21 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:06 pm
Posts: 110
Sorry about the lazyness of not searching.

Thanks for your detailed answer, i find it pretty fun to try something different like a thorns build after a decade playing regular diablo as hammerdin and hammerdin. Also, i was on doing it on a pally for thorns aura, is that even worse? i started one as i made this thread and i just saw treehead woodfist almost kill himself in the process of killing my mercenary, thats only with thorns aura. I also got a Stormguild for the thons.

And yet another question, Do archers get damaged by thorns? couldnt tell with precision since phys merc tends to kill everything at the same time with multishot.

edit: Griswold likes to kill himself too. That must be related to amp. I've read the Inquisitor thread and i found the item that made me do a thorns paladin:

+200% Enhanced Defense
(4400-5000) Thorns Damage (Based on Character Level)
Prevent Monster Heal
+50% Faster Hit Recovery
20% Chance to Cast Level 20 Iron Maiden when Struck
Socketed (3)
Reanimate Slain as: Returned
+5-7 to Blade Shield (Assassin Only)
+5-7 to Thorns (Paladin Only)
+20 to Blade Shield (OSKILL)
+20 to Thorns (OSKILL)
100% Chance of Open Wounds

Thats the blade barrier. I found it on single and had the idea. Any late game thorns paladin ever tried to tank Juggernaut, Griswold, Korlic/Talic to see what they do to themselves? I'll edit a char to 101 and try to tank the ancients with it, but im betting im going to get stomped.

Edit: Further reading of the inquisitor paladin made me decide to edit a barbarian with thorns as well, and try Ancients with both. Lets see who dies first in both situations against Hell difficulty Ancients. Just hoping talic doesnt come out Phys immune, he has that annoying habit...

Again thanks for the attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Thorns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:16 am 
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if you are going for a build that can kill bosses well with thorns then you may want to consider a spirit of barbs druid. Bosses deal 8x damage to summons and as a result, have 8x damage reflected back at them. If you use spirit of barbs, along with iron golem from metalgrid/worldstone granite, + thorns from blade barrier (should get it up around level 30 thorns without much problem at that stage), you will have a hefty amount of damage returned. You cn then use a brand runeword javelin to proc amp from a distance. Prior to that carry allot of smith runes and a wand with amp charges for bosses. Once the boss is at 5% life, switch to oak and let summons deal the finishing blow to save the tp.

Something to mull over at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Thorns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:06 pm
Posts: 110
Hmm.. Thanks for the tips Purerage. Ill consider a Thorns druid. Is it viable Hell, or just novelty/for the giggles build? does the amp makes bosses killable with 8x damage done to summon + thorns aura and barbs?

Again, thanks for your time

Overkill.

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 Post subject: Re: Thorns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:33 pm 
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yeh it will work but it will be a little slow without amp. a charges wand will work wonders however.

If you take a look at the naked story videos, on the ancients, we killed them with maxed SoB , summons and amp with my traps deling minimal damage and just making it look pretty.

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 Post subject: Re: Thorns
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:29 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:06 pm
Posts: 110
Playing HU naked looks like a nice challenge haha, i've heard of it the last time i lurked the HU foruns, i believe it was a video of 6 players doing act 2 naked.

Any chance another project like that, or simply playing together with more people, will happen anytime soon? i usually play with only 2, me and a friend. However, playing with more people is much better.

Thanks for all the attention pure rage. and brevan, i've got all the information i need to dive into thorns builds :)

Sincerely,
Overkill.

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