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 Post subject: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:20 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:13 pm
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New to the forum, wanted some advice on a necro build.

So its time to open the debate again... poison or bone necro? With the last patch, both became 60 point builds. Near as i can tell, the damage difference isn't that different - if anything bone seems to have more dps since (a) poison doesn't stack, and (b) you do damage as fast as you can cast bone spells.

The breaking point seems to be that late game, poison takes over primarily due to items and the lower resist curse. More items that lower psn resist, more items boosting psn damage and it seems to become a more viable option.

I was hoping people could weigh in on the debate (FYI, playing the multiplayer with a pali and bowzon).

Also, and this related - how are resists calculated?

For example suppose I had a psn necro with an A3 psn merc for the lower resist. Let us suppose that the merc's aura was -20% psn resist. Suppose I socked the hell out of a sword and handed it to him that stated the sword was -40% poison resist. And further, I cast LR on the poor hapless mod, and the skill is at -50% resist all.... do i really get -110% poison resist and effectively double my damage out of that?

If not, how does the -resist% stack work?

To that end, the Curse LR... does it apply to bone speels? I read it applied to teeth... what about bone spear and spirit? If not, is there a spell that does?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:31 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 734
Auras and skills that pierce enemy resists are for everyone attacking, but gear pierce only affects the person attacking. So you would get -70% resists applied with your damage (20 from merc aura, 50 from LR), and the merc would get all 110.

Also, if an enemy is immune, the pierce skills work at 1/5th effectiveness. So your LR would only be 10%, and the merc aura would only be 4%. Keep in mind this still applies to all skills that are piercing even if only one is required to pierce. For example, if a monster has 101% poison res, your merc would do 4% and pierce it to 97% res. Then it is uniummune. However, your LR would still work at 1/5 even when it is unimmune, meaning it will only be reduced to 87% res. That's when gear pierce is important, because once a monster becomes unimmune, the gear pierce works at full strength.

There is no magic pierce skill here in HU. So LR does not apply to teeth, spirit, spear.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:13 pm
Posts: 24
No magic pierce skill, but you can socket an item with diamonds or some such and drop magic resist that way.

Could you follow up on items lower resist being applied 100% after immunity is broken? So if you have a sword doing -40%, a merc doing -20%, and LR doing -50%, and let's say gloves doing -25%, the Merc Aura and LR would both be applied at 1/5 (so 4% and 10%), to break 101% to 87%, at which point the gloves and sword would apply at -65% to bring it down to 23% (if additive) or 56% (if multiplicative)?

Do ALL items just apply to the one on which they are equipped?

And could you please tie this back into the entire poison vs bone debate? I've currently built my guy up as a bone necro for a little more versatility, but am worried about hitting a ceiling.

The issue is psn necros only really have poison strike until lvl 36., then they get nova which sucks up alot of mana and does no where near the damage - you're largely forced into melee range all the time... which I found usually leads to death. Nova overcomes the short term problem, but the damage just doesn't seem as good as spamming bone spear for less mana...


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:09 am
Posts: 734
Radrunner007 wrote:
No magic pierce skill, but you can socket an item with diamonds or some such and drop magic resist that way. - yes i know, but you asked about LR. Only gear can pierce magic resists, and it cannot work on immunes.

Could you follow up on items lower resist being applied 100% after immunity is broken? So if you have a sword doing -40%, a merc doing -20%, and LR doing -50%, and let's say gloves doing -25%, the Merc Aura and LR would both be applied at 1/5 (so 4% and 10%), to break 101% to 87%, at which point the gloves and sword would apply at -65% to bring it down to 23% (if additive) or 56% (if multiplicative)? - items that lower resist will always work at full strength. So if you have 40 from sword and 25 from gloves (in your scenario), then yes, the resists go down to 23.

Do ALL items just apply to the one on which they are equipped? - yes, all items with -enemy resists apply to the person they are on. So if you have a weapon, gloves, shield, and helmet with -enemy poison resists, you would add all that up together and apply that to the resists of the monster. My sorc has about -130% lightning res on all her gear combined... she absolutely shreds anything that isnt immune ( and even immunes i break).

And could you please tie this back into the entire poison vs bone debate? I've currently built my guy up as a bone necro for a little more versatility, but am worried about hitting a ceiling. - poison necros are stronger this patch. It's the way they deal with bosses. You can hit and run and let the damage do all its work easily for you while you sit back and spam spirit blades/golems to tank. Bone necros are perfectly good players too, though. If you have the charms, they both will do very well.

The issue is psn necros only really have poison strike until lvl 36., then they get nova which sucks up alot of mana and does no where near the damage - you're largely forced into melee range all the time... which I found usually leads to death. Nova overcomes the short term problem, but the damage just doesn't seem as good as spamming bone spear for less mana...


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:22 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:13 pm
Posts: 24
How does poison damage work exactly?

Am i right in assuming that damage over X seconds means your dps is damage/X?

How does that work with the poison duration averaging over all skills/items? I.e. if my poison is 300 over 3 seconds, am i doing 100 damage per second? If i then get an item and my duration averages to 6 seconds, am i now only doing 50 every second?


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:45 am 
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1) For poison skills, the damage per frame is calculated (based on skill level and Mastery%), and then the duration is calculated in frames (based on skill level, 25 frames per second). The reported damage is just the product of the numbers of frames and the damage per frame. This means that your damage per second is the reported damage divided by the duration in seconds, just like you assumed.

2) Non-skill sources of poison damage are so low that it's hard to figure out how they work without careful testing. Since the damage is so low, I dont think anyone's bothered to check. I'm sure it hasn't changed much since Vanilla, so perhaps Blue's site still has a link to poison calculations. Last I remembered, the damage per frame is just totalled, and the durations averaged, then the damage per frame is applied over that average duration. In the situation you brought up, initially you do 100dmg/sec for 3 seconds, then you would do (100+x) over 6 seconds (since you said the new average was 6). Since poison sources do not stack when additional hits are made, you may not notice any improvement in dps if 'x' is small.

3) There is only one situation where poison damage stacks noticeably, and that is skill-poison from the same character. The usual situation is a Necro using PStrike buffing himself with Venom oSkill. In this case, his per-frame damage is (PStrike + Venom) and the duration is (PStrike + Venom). The duration would only be improved by 0.5 seconds, so isn't noticeable, but the per-frame damage improvement can be very significant, since Venom has pretty decent damage per second. However, only the target struck by the weapon (not the poison cloud) takes the additional damage from Venom. This situation can be duplicated with Plague or Poison Javelin, but not Rabies (I haven't confirmed with Rabies, but it makes sense since Rabies is different from other poison skills).


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:51 am 
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I thought Venom capped all other sources of poison to 0,5 seconds.. Or is it only poison damage from equipment?


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:58 am 
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As far as I know, poison skills always cap the duration of off-skill sources to the duration of the skill. For example, if you're using PStrike for maybe 10k dps over 8 seconds, and then add in 40 charms with 200 dmg over 6 seconds (I think that mod exists on sc, these 40 charms would add 8k over 6s, or 1.3k dps), then you'd do 11.3k dps over 8 seconds. In other words, you spent 40 inventory slots for extrememly rare charms in order to buff your damage by 10%. Next time go with a Tal rune. If you want to be really cheezy, then just go with a 5-Tal (+40%Psn and 125 dmg/s (175 due to 40% mastery, or 1.4k over 8 seconds)) crystal sword when you reach level 17, it's kinda fun, kinda lame.

To be honest, testing with that Crystal sword would probably be the best way to figure out how off-skill source durations work, since Tal's 8 seconds is long enough to really notice if it gets truncated to whatever duration PStrike you've got (4 seconds?)... Heck, it might be stronger to just use regular attack with that sword (assuming PStrike doesn't yet do 175 dmg per second, and you don't mind waiting 8 seconds (i.e. Multishot with 5-Tal bow)).


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:29 pm 
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multishot with a tal'd bow is crazy OP :P

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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:13 pm
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Brevan wrote:
As far as I know, poison skills always cap the duration of off-skill sources to the duration of the skill. For example, if you're using PStrike for maybe 10k dps over 8 seconds, and then add in 40 charms with 200 dmg over 6 seconds (I think that mod exists on sc, these 40 charms would add 8k over 6s, or 1.3k dps), then you'd do 11.3k dps over 8 seconds. In other words, you spent 40 inventory slots for extrememly rare charms in order to buff your damage by 10%. Next time go with a Tal rune. If you want to be really cheezy, then just go with a 5-Tal (+40%Psn and 125 dmg/s (175 due to 40% mastery, or 1.4k over 8 seconds)) crystal sword when you reach level 17, it's kinda fun, kinda lame.

To be honest, testing with that Crystal sword would probably be the best way to figure out how off-skill source durations work, since Tal's 8 seconds is long enough to really notice if it gets truncated to whatever duration PStrike you've got (4 seconds?)... Heck, it might be stronger to just use regular attack with that sword (assuming PStrike doesn't yet do 175 dmg per second, and you don't mind waiting 8 seconds (i.e. Multishot with 5-Tal bow)).



If i follow you right, then items that increase poison damage (i.e. +200 poison damage over 6 seconds) stack ontop of skills? as well as weapons?

i


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 Post subject: Re: Poison vs. Bone Necro + LR question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Last I heard, yes +PoisDmg stacks with attack skills.

Some examples:
1) You have charms (or gear) that add 300 dmg over 3 seconds (100 dps)
2) You have PStrike (or PJav) doing 6k over 6 seconds (1000 dps)
3) You have Venom doing 1k over 0.5 seconds (2k dps)

Example 1, PStrike + Charms:
1100 dps for 6 seconds (6600 total) to the creature hit with your weapon
1000 dps for 6 seconds (6000 total) to the creatures affected by the cloud

Exampe 2, Venom + Charms:
2100 dps for 0.5 seconds (1050 total) to the creature hit with your weapon

Example 3, PStrike + Venom + Charms:
3100 dps for 6.5 seconds (20150 total) to the creature hit with your weapon
1000 dps for 6 seconds (6000 total) to the creatures affected by the cloud

A big caveat though, is that I haven't done much research into this myself, I'm just reporting the way I read it worked. In general, poison is hard to test with. In most situations, poison skills just total up the damage per frame and apply it for some duration (it's the product of duration and per-frame damage that you see). The duration calculation seems to be harder to figure out when things stack.


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