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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:20 am 
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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:20 pm 
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melee sorc works abit, but thay are not melee until at least 62 for a chaos staff. Don't expect a gg boss killer or anything, just a novel way of trash killing (still not great)

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:00 pm 
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There is no "Dream" shield. "Dream" hat only has level 20 Holy Shock, so the damage is very low (about 350?).

The last melee sorc I made used:
20 Enchant, Warmth, FireMastery, Telekinesis, with the rest in IceBolt.

I had about 10 points in IceBolt for the synergy bonus using "Wonder" runeword flail. The level 50 Blizzard and FrozenOrb were good, but without Zeal oSkill, the sorc could not attack fast enough to be useful. Testing that weapon was the only reason I made the sorc.

For the armor, I used crafted Hitpower armor (lvl 15 Frozen Armor on struck) with 4 diamonds. You have to get as high a defence as possible for melee sorc because their block rate is so slow that it is not useful to block.

With low level Energy Shield and lots of dr/mdr from diamonds (and Warmth and Frozen Armor), this sorc was indistructible to trash and some bosses to at least A4 NM (I don't remember playing her past that).

You should make a crafted shield. Either Sapphire (ARating, lvl 12 FArmor, +%Block), Emerald (magic res, dr/mdr, +%Block), or Topaz (-%FireRes). Your shield needs to have Amythests, or Emeralds (if you max block rate already). Your shield needs to have the mod "faster block with block rate" and "reduce poison duration". I was never able to make a reduced-poison shield for my sorc, so poison was a big problem for her. Keep a row of antidotes in your belt, that is alright.

"Valor" may not be as good as you want. It only has +3 Skills, 50% ias, and Zeal for you. The %ED, %leach, and %Deadly are not important because you do not do much physical damage unless you get a very high strength.

I used DrowStrike Battle Dart a lot. It has a very fast attack and can be thrown if you need to. The Fade on struck (reduce poison and curses) and Cloak of Shadows is nice too.

You should make Amythest crafted boots (+%MaxMana). I think my sorc used InfernoStride (-%FireRes), or Diamond craft (Vigor with FRWalk so that I could walk and keep my high defence and block). I did not need the extra mana in NM (I had nice +Mana charms).

Tal Rasha Hat, Ammy, and belt is nice for +%Mana.

My stats were mostly energy. I could not be hurt, so I did not need vit. I used a flail and crafted leather armor, so I did not need str. I used amythests in saphire crafted shield, so I did not need dex. I did not rush the sorc, but often used a bow.


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:36 am 
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Why would you max Lightning Mastery?
I think using a bow would be safer and you would still be able to deliver mass destruction. Search for 'fires explosive arrows' and pierce attack (Like Kuko Shakaku, Demon Machine, Hellrack)


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:46 am 
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He maxed LMastery for dual-"Dream" items. Back in the day the HolyShock auras would stack such that instead of 2xlvl20, you had 1xlvl40. In fact, I'm told you could just take off a peice and put it back on to buff the HShock level by another 20 as a bug. This bug lead to trivially killing screens of enemies using the pulse damage alone.

With only one "Dream" LMastery certainly loses it's effectiveness, but it he put points into CBolt (10% synergy with TK) and LMastery together, he could probably get TK's damage high enough to pin-down and killed a named immune critter in Hell. Would take quite a while though.

Sorcs using Exloding arrows or Multishot are known to be alright, so I think Good_Hash just wanted to try a melee sorc to see if they are possible. That's why I made mine. Like the Melee necro, the build would need some strongly-customized gear (a non-weapon source of an attack-skill (e.g. Zeal) oSkill would work wonders).


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:49 am 
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I'm still in favour of having the norm sammy charm come with a +1 zeal oskill. I don't really see it being a problem to anything and would be a massive help to these obscure caster, turned melee builds :).

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Considering the ramifications of +Zeal on Norm Sammy charm (currently 10% exp):

1) That charm has a max-carry of 1, so you can't stack the oSkill boost.
2) That charm becomes useless to high leveled chars due to exp boost becoming less important (do people really feel 10% is that important anyways? Doesn't hurt, I know). With the skill, it retains value to some builds.
3) That charm isn't too hard to get, so wouldn't prevent the obscure melee builds from attaining it.
4) That charm has level requirement 60, so typically the obscure melee builds would have it for NM and Hell difficulties but not normal.
5) Changing the charm to have an oSkill should not be time consuming to implement since the charm only has 1 mod currently, and adding an oSkill to charms is just as easy as to standard equipment.
6) Off-weapon attack skills enables combinations like "Beast" + Zeal + (Venom, Enchant, Maul, or other pre-buff type skill). I don't know what those builds would be like, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't suck.

I can't think of anything else, and none of those points seems bad or unreasonable to me. I don't understand why your recommendation wasn't accepted. I'd vote in favour of adding +1 or + 4 Zeal to Sammy's Norm Difficulty small charm. I'm in favour of +4 (5 hits) because it might not be easy getting plenty of +AllSkills on obscure-melee-build gear.


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Probably the only character that could "abuse" oskill zeal on a sammy charm would be a barbarian. Currently with a shield they have fairly slow hitting attacks (conc & zerk) and having zeal might make them a bit happier with its multihit capacity. I don't know that it would really be an "abuse" though as I can't see it being all that strong.

I am fine putting it out there as a proposal to Soulmancer and seeing what he thinks.

Incidentally, 10% exp gain is in my opinion MORE valuable to late game characters than early game characters. Could be just me though.

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:36 pm 
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I would rather use WW on a barb than zeal myself. The mechanics of that skill are so strong it seems a shame to waste it. They wouldn't be using zeal on IM casting bosses I don't think for fear of IM mid swing. It could be used by barbs but IMO, they have better attack skills to choose from.

Edit: I agree on the 10%exp, it makes no impact until you re level 95+

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Last edited by PureRage-DoD on Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:37 pm 
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ya - that was pretty much my thought too. Barbs are probably the only class where we might think later down the line "ooops - ya, that was a bad idea" due to something we simply aren't considering.

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:10 pm 
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casters shouldn't melee. abusing poor d2 mechanism should be considered cheating.


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:35 am 
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Steel wrote:
casters shouldn't melee. abusing poor d2 mechanism should be considered cheating.


Why shouldn't casters be allowed to melee? By that reasoning we should remove enchant completely and take all offensive buffs off of bone shield. Even using an attack skill, a char not designed to be a melee has a much harder time surviving.

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Quote:
Why shouldn't casters be allowed to melee? By that reasoning we should remove enchant completely and take all offensive buffs off of bone shield. Even using an attack skill, a char not designed to be a melee has a much harder time surviving.
same way why barbs shouldnt go bows, or sins cast spells. You want to abuse their skills and add uniqs/rws to help em only to prove they're not good melee fighters. + ench is team skill, bone armor allows psn nec to melee (pstrike)+(anyway its bad idea too)


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:57 am 
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If people want to experiment and make a build thats not usualy seen then why not give them the tools to do so? Maybe you want every build to be a cookie cutter, "build like this" char but some people like to try new and interesting things. A barb would never use a bow becuse he has the massive defensive capabilitys that other bow users don't. Letting a sorc or nec melee isn't unbaancing anything is it? They don't have passive lifebuffs and have a much harder job tanking than a barb would have dealing ranged damage.

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:21 am 
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Quote:
Maybe you want every build to be a cookie cutter
maybe not.
Quote:
Letting a sorc or nec melee isn't unbaancing anything is it?
For me they can run naked, I just said they shouldn't melee. Never said they shouldn't be allowed(!) to melee. it's free world rofl.


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:45 am 
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"they shouldn't melee" is no reason not to give them the option if they want. I have a wwsorc who is great fun. Not so hot as a dedicated tank but its fun to see a sorc getting up close and personal with nm baal :P

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:34 am 
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Quote:
"they shouldn't melee" is no reason not to give them the option if they want.
they have, from oskill, that's all. Like barbs casting fireballs given from trangs. Is it strong? no, should be stronger? no.


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:12 pm 
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and giving a sorc +1 zeal makes them OP I guess eh? :P

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:17 pm 
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won't change anything. poor fhr, slow melee animation. Zeal on zon could work better since they have fastest att speed + good fhr.


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:25 pm 
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So why are you complaining?
FHR can be made fine with charms, Melee animation can be fixed with "beast" and the attack speed in human form is fine on a sorc using zeal anyway. Have you played a melee sorc/necro?
Why would a zon use level 1 zeal when they have jab + fend that would be dealing more damage and provide more AR?

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:43 pm 
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ugh, just said... cut that topic here.


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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:02 pm 
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So you are complaining because its NOT strong enough? On the 1 hand you say, "its wrong and should be considered cheating" and on the other hand you say "It changes nothing, they have bad FHR and attack speed". So what one is it? Are they OP and "cheating" or are they useless?

You need to at least be consistent when you try to make a point...

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 Post subject: Re: zeal sorc
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:20 am 
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+1 to posts count.


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