Nova/Frost Nova: ND=4
Chain Lightning: ND=4

teeth: ND=4(meaning only 1 missile per cast can hit)
Poison Nova ND=4(makes no sense poison elemental dmg can not stack upon itself)

multishot: ND=4

Battle Cry/BO/BC: ND=4(why's a curse/buff have ND?)
War Cry: ND =6(odd considering barbs can hit the same 4 frame cast as a sorc)

Shock Web: ND=25(!!!!)
Blade Sentinel: ND=25(also !!!!)

Fissure: ND=5
Volcano(the actual volcano): ND=8 splash dmg ND=4

Tornado/Twister: ND=25

Shockwave: ND=4

Wake of Destruction( Wake of Fire???) ND=4

Claws of Thunder Chain Lightning and Nova charges: ND=4

Phoenix Strike Chaos Ice Bolt and Chain Lightning: ND=4

any other player skill that isnt listed means that there is no ND for it.

to Newbies: ND is short for the txt file column NextDelay: what this means is that how many frames need to pass for the skill to hit again.

if people also want i can TRY to list monster skill ND values

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there is no sig

An excellent collection of useful data. It's always handy to know what a skill's Next-hit-Delay is in frames.

For those unfamiliar with these, the Next-hit Delay is the number of frames (25 per second I think) that must pass before a creature can be affected by the skill again (as mentioned above).

Very low Next-Hit-Delays are what used to cause some skill like Nova to be overpowered (it took several frames before the nova would pass through a large critter like Andarial, so one nova would hit many times). Higher Next-hit-Delays are what cause some skills like ChainLightning and BladeSentinel to be nearly useless (If the lightning bounces between 2 creatures faster than the ND, then not all the bounces will do damage).

It's really unfortunate that War Cry has an ND of 6. If the barb got his Breakpoint of 4, then only every 2nd casting would be useful (effectively he'd have a cast rate of 3 per second instead of 6).

What is the FCR required for a barb (or sorc) to hit 4 fp cast? All the tables I can find for vanilla say they can only reach 7 frames.

200 fcr

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What is the break point for 6 fpc and where can I find this info so I can stop having to ask? lol

could be wrong but 105 iirc. The info can be found in my memory.

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Are you saying that if I cast Poison Nova every 7 frames it is useless as I have to wait the 3 (75 frames) seconds anyway for the entire poison from the first one to take full effect and at the same time, none of the other poison nova's cast have done anything until after those 3 seconds? So in those 3 seconds I have casted Poison Nova about 10 times but only one is actually doing anything? Or am I reading that incorrectly? Please explain, so I can scrap my poison necro if needed. Thanks in advance!

lol, you should post a link to your memory. I've been looking at this site for my breakpoints:
http://zelaron.com/forum/showthread.php ... post448155
and it has the same breakpoints as you've been suggesting, but different frames for each (7 for 200%, 8 for 105%, etc) are these inaccurate or am I just missing something completely?

Pretty much.

Poison skill characters aren't about speed, so things like FCR and IAS are of limited value. Here is what happens:

1. You cast P.Nova and a target gets infected with your poison. That target will slowly loose heatlh at a fixed rate based on how strong your poison is and for a fixed rate depending on your skill.

2. If you cast P.Nova again all you do is restart the clock on how long the poison will last, you don't stack new damage on top of your old damage.

So ya - if a monster is green, don't cast p.nova. Your job is to just keep everyone on the screen green and then sit back and drink your beer while you wait for them to die. On the flipside if you just repeatedly spam p.nova you can be 100% certain that they are staying green

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Thanks Blue. That will certainly save me a ton of mana if I spread it out a little. Even from playing with it, it appeared what I thought should be happening was not happening. This definitely confirms and explains it very well.

At least I don't have to concentrate as much on increasing the FCR anymore.

yup that summs it up pretty much. I like poison as it allows me to focus on other things. Summoning minions during bosses. spamming poison nova is just raping your mana tho. This is why poison builds get such high numbers as the damage is spread over a set time and not dealt from each hit. In comparison to other builds that dont need to wait between attacks the damage is pretty low. People see huge numbers and assume "OMG THAT IS WAY OVERPOWERED". just an example:

a 15k frost nova from a sorceress can be cast 6 times a second over 6 seconds. thats 15k x 36. Thats 540k over 6 seconds. In comparison a poison nec with around the same skill levels will be doing maybe 180k - 200k over 6.6 seconds say. thats totaly shitty in real terms. Rabies is in the same boat. Since people hear of a 400k rabies etc they think "OVERPOWERED, NERF IT" but with the high duration it is spread over it is still pretty low damage per second compared with any other build.

400k rabies over 8.4 secs is still only 57k a sec. sorcs can easily get 15k damage 6 times a second (way more powerfull) melee builds can easily get 20k damage 5 times a second (almost twice as powerfull, not including deadly strike and crushing blow) and the numbers above would be. rabies druid would have to be pre patch, loaded with perf facets and full inv of skillers + anni heart and brain (roughly)
sorc would have to be level 90ishhave no skillers no facets and no anni heart or brain.
melee builds would be level 90ish too. easily obtainable weapons and equip for that kinda damage, no skillers, anni heart or brain needed again.

It seems poison damage has taken a real beating from people who see a high number and fail to devide it by the duration and multiply the damage they are doing by the frames per attack they are reaching.

Result: Poison builds are pretty much useless and are of no use to man nor beast. Bring back poison builds ffs. just looking at the numbers is dire. Obviously fools are gonna think a 100k listed damage is HUGE but its totaly garbage when its spread over 7 seconds...

Ps. wow that became abit of a rant. my bad but something needs to be done.

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While a large amount of that rant is true, I think that you are looking at the balance analysis from a very one dimensional view. You are comparing damage to damage and assuming that means it is apples to apples, but a druid or a necro are very different characters than a sorceress and that needs to come in to play when discussing their abilities.

Lets take the Necro as he is the easier of the two. For straters, he has access to the Lower Resists curse which completely changes the ballgames. Even though a sorceress can get considerable -resist on gear, that won't break immunities and really doesn't pack the same punch as the Lower Resist curse. It isn't until the sorcess has access to runewords with the conviction aura that she can start to compete with access to LR, and by then most of the game has already been completed. Or, as many in this community seem to think - the game has just started. Depends on your perspective, but unfortunately for the community Soulmancer seems to think that the game is just about ended by the time your character is in the 90s.

Secondly a necromancer gets recastable summons - both blades and golems are very powerful tools to manage crowds and bosses. A sorceress is by in large on her own. You also can't discount curses like lifetap or decrep as poison works as a point of application dmg (ie, the dmg calculations occur as soon as the psn is applied), so you can switch from LR over to decrep after the monster is green.

A druid has similar benefits from Oak, Spirit of Barbs, pets and the ability to shapeshift in to a sturdier form to keep from dying. Most elemental druids can also use physical dmg as a secondary attack as well as leeching.

These advantages also convey over to the party. Whereas a sorc is pretty much just good for high dmg output, a necromancer can provide curse support and limited tanking ability making him a more rounded team member. A druid provides arguably the most powerful life buff in the game which makes him a welcome addition anywhere. You can also regear and go melee style to apply some crushing blow.

So while there may be a very clear argument to increase the rabies damage (I think it probably does need a boost of some sort), I do think it does need to be done with a grain of salt. This isn't apples to apples.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

I just used a sorc as an example, but a melee build can also out dps poison in most forms, usualy by a hell of alot. Like I said 20k damage with a 2 hander is very easy and 5fpa with that is easy too. thats 100k per sec, 200k with deadly strike (easy to get 100%) then crushing blow etc too. 1,000,000 over 5 seconds. strike + lower res could never ever compete with that. even with a full inventory of skillers and a perfect equip setup. The melee can achieve that damage output for fun in no time. amazons can get 15k guided easy enough for single targets and will be out damaging any poison build with maxed deadly strike to boot. + valk and decoy to tank + multishot for the trash. assasins i cant give any feedback for as they are my least played class. That will change this season though so I`ll have more input on those later.

druid has oak, necro has curses. I think that is pretty balanced in terms of party skills. so I myself would put them on the same level roughly. In terms of all round builds the poison builds are behind. Alot of the damage was coming from an act1 merc on the rabies druids last season, yet people overlook that and call for a nerf...

kinda puts me off revealing anything about the chars im building to be honest since if it turns out to be good it`ll get nerfed.

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No argument - melee are the most powerful in this mod. I would rather bring melee down a few notches.



Had nothing to do with exposure. I wrote a very detailed Frostbite guide and that build is still running strong. Rabies got nailed because of an exploit item (charges on a ring), it is a shame that Soulmancer didn't think to compensate for that bug with a bit of a boost, but I don't think it had much of anything to do with revealing builds.

Witholding information and keeping secrets never benefits game balance.

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People who live in cinder block houses can throw whatever they want.

Not sure where you guys are getting your information, but you guys are mistaken about the caster attack speeds.

There are 25 frames each second.

Max cast rate in the game is 7 FPA (frames per attack), achievable by sorc and barb only.

25/7 = 3.5 Not 6

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I was never more at home than I was in battle. - Solomon Kane

Tornado and ND always confused me. Technically nado shouldn't be hitting multiple times with its terrible ND, but it does. Try using nado with slow missile on you, it absolutely rapes shit.

QFT

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