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 Post subject: Mana problems
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:23 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
So I talked to Brevan and his advice was to 'not cast spells so frequently'. This sort of defeats the purpose of virtually every caster, minus a few like orb or blizzard. Simply put you have to spam spells to kill monsters, and he essentially suggested I melee mobs as a caster.

I've tried multiple builds now. Charged bolt sorc, fireball/hydra sorc, orb sorc, nado druid. Virtually everything comes down to mana issues in a sense that my entire mana pool is gone in 2-3 seconds of casting.

I've streamed my druid, I've shown how volatile mana is in a sense the entirety of the game is drinking and looking for mana pots. I would be happy to once again stream me going through an area and showing just how many pots I drink. Never in the past have I had to go back to town more frequently to get mana, and this is on top of picking up every fucking blue pot I run into.

I've tried to understand brevan's thought process on why mana is so shitty, and resoundingly he's told me it gets better. It never gets better, it always gets worse. The more +skills that become available vastly increase mana costs proportionate to the mana I'm actually seeing go up. In the past mana problems were there early game, there is no denying this. But this was solved in several ways. Mana on kill was more valuable because mob density was higher, mana costs were lower in comparison to mana per kill values, and as you actually gained levels you saw solid increases in mana. Caster crafts or sapphires in armor would provide nominal amounts of mana when combined with MPK to sustain casters early. Later their mana pool would support their spells. My journey from 1-60 saw my mana go from 40 to 200. In the past it would scale much higher as I leveled.

This patch has killed the mod for the vast majority of my group of friends who have always come back to the mod for patches and always played at least through hell. Now we're not even interested in getting beyond normal because it is so tedious. No one I've talked to in game has enjoyed the new mana scaling curve. The only one defending said mana issues are people who helped make the patch, and even then it seems half hearted. Listening to brevan explain to me retarded solutions like melee the mobs, cast less, play with a med paladin tell me he doesn't even believe the shit he's saying.

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So to anyone actually playing any sort of spammy class, how do you deal with mana issues? Outside of filling my inventory with mana pots, cube with mana pots, and tediously refilling my belt like this is a fucking mana pot to belt simulator I'm at a loss. I've tried leveling synergies vs the actual damaging skill to keep mana cost down, but in reality the synergies are now just nominal increases to skills and the weight of their scaling is in leveling them. I've tried stacking mana regen, this makes no difference whatsoever. This stacking of mana regen in correlation to how med functions leads me to believe med won't make a difference, not that I have access to it anyways. The only thing I haven't tried is stacking lums*8 in my armor and helm, but this would drastically increase the damage I take and I'm not necessarily certain it would help much.

When I want to do big damage I can spam mana pots, the mana restrictions aren't stopping me, which is why this game isn't meant to be balanced around mana costs. All this change has done is make playing any caster that isn't using a built in ICD skill extremely tedious to play. Why anyone would think this is fun is beyond me. But brevan apparently does, perhaps it fits in with his playstyle of moving at the speed of an 80 year old who writes checks to pay for their shit at a store in the checkout line.

Grats though brevan, you've killed the mod. I've never seen so little players after a patch, but I'm sure after making characters and realizing they're going to be MFing for mana pots not items they gave up.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:48 pm
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Sorcs are generally long range casters so they can deal with sacrificing some tanky sockets for stacking Lum runes. With max warmth, a small investment into energy, and a few Lum runes, you can hit "critical mass" where the regen from warmth is actually effective. With a bit of MPK you should be able to sustain while spamming stuff like fireballs. I got to a point on my sorc where I did not have to carry mana pots anymore and could spam meteor+firebolt nonstop. This was around lvl 55 with pretty bad gear.

With something like a nado druid I usually depend on "damage taken goes to mana". All it takes is one or 2 Ith runes and a big enough mana pool to cast 3 or 4 times. Since nados are most effective in basically melee range you should pretty much always be taking damage and thus filling your mana pool.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:14 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
Except trash mobs don't deal damage after pdr/mdr.

As for sorc, never found this balance, despite a full energy build with warmth maxed. Icebolt costs 75 mana a cast, I'd have to have mana in the 2k range for it to be effective, and it's only around 500 with almost all my points in energy.

This is sacrificing max block, sacrificing damage, sacrificing defense for lums. I melt at any damage because ES is dick now.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:27 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:29 pm
Posts: 6
I put 3 lum runes in the unique circlet that has 25% mana regen, upgraded for 5pdr/mdr and 1 skills. The level 40 unique ring with 30% mana regen 1 lum rune in armor for 15%, 1 in shield for 15%. I still have 3 open sockets in my weapon but don't see any need when I recover 70+ mana per second at level 57. With the 90% from level 11 warmth and 20% from each mastery included my mana recovers faster than mobs can deplete it though energy shield I can't imagine how high it will be at max level with another 150% from warmth and 130% from a maxed mastery and +skills buffing the other 2 1 point masteries. Every 1 all skills is 12% :D. She face tanked every boss up to diablo except the poison seal boss who I kited because his poison was too much for my hp regen to counter and ES+PDR/MDR doesn't help with that. Kiting is EZ when you can tele around and gain mana at the same time.

Lum runes are double powerful too with the extra 30 mana per rune. The good thing about mana regen is you can still kill a boss even if you have no mana potions at all, it just takes a little longer between bursts. Are most folks ignoring mana regen? For real gear and build for sustain. It is way more powerful than gearing for pure burst and depending on potions.

Being able to keep energy shield at a lower absorb% reduces damage enough so my 43 pdr and mdr prevent hp loss and keeps the mana drain low. Especially with 66% block chance and 20% chance to be hit :lol: . I don't even bother dodging stuff most of the time now, she can eat pretty much anything that isnt diablos flame wave + light hose combined. Solod up to act 5 so far. I did have a level 50 druid join for diablo, but they didn't have summons or spirits, just hurricane and melee. I feel like most of the complaints are because people have tunnel vision on what worked in the past instead of looking for what works now. 200 mana at level 60 is crazy low. I have over 700 at level 57 and could bump it up to over 800 if I lum my weapon. My gear is pretty ass too, I just don't have the patience to farm.

Italicized part was eyeballing and including MPK.


Last edited by HU_Nox on Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:37 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
Doesn't sound right. I have 550 mana and maxed warmth, 2 30% rings, 30% from belt, 60% from shield and I don't even have a fraction of what you have.

As for 200 @ 60, it's a druid, nothing gives mana anymore and their growth rate is abysmal.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:24 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:29 pm
Posts: 6
Act 5 stuff is starting to deplete my bulb if I pull too much, but as long as I stick to 2 to 4 groups at a time it's easily managable. Screenie is just after face tanking cold dragon. I had about 70 less mana for that to see if 30% more regen was better, it wasn't but still only used 5 super mana potions.
I don't have a point in lightning mastery yet either. Thought I did but I guess I thought about it and went for more damage since sustain isn't a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:34 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
According to your post you have 235 mana regen.

Going to go ahead and round up your mana to 800, you're getting <25 mana per second.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:36 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:29 pm
Posts: 6
Sorry I was just eyeballing my mana didn't do the math, I didnt notice I had 3 mana per kill throwing me off too and I blow stuff up very fast. I could have another 100% now if I had maxed warmth instead of a synergy and 1 pointed light mastery, but I just don't need it. If I start having a hard time keeping mana up I'll start dumping points in warmth again but until then I'd rather raise damage.

Design doc says
6.B) Mana regenerates normally at MAX_MP/60 mana per second, so a high-MP (600) player with +100%Regen would get 20MP/sec.
731/60 = 12.1833 repeating
12.33 x 3.35 = 40.8 per sec

If I 3x lum the weapon I gain 15% mana and 30% regen, so I would have 840 mana and 265 mana regen.
840/60 = 14
14 x 3.65 = 51.1 per sec
like having a 50% strength super mana potion full time.

If I had maxed warmth and 1 pointed light mastery.
14 x 4.65 = 65.1 per sec.

You still need to use mana potions but I'm yet to run out with 2 rows in belt and grabbing 1 from the floor after I use one. I keep a spare row in the cube for emergencies and act bosses. Seriously give it a try. Trash doesn't hit hard enough through ES for you to need diamonds in armor/shield sockets and act bosses hit so hard that PDR and MDR is near worthless anyway. Lum runes #1.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:02 am 

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:29 pm
Posts: 6
Just hit 60 and switched some gear around. yay for more open sockets. 799 mana 370% mana regen. Lost 10 PDR/MDR but still taking no damage from trash with ES up. 62.58 mana per sec from mana regen by my shoddy calculations. Still using death belt and gloves and some crappy rare dual res boots, but rnjesus isn't giving me any decent upgrades for those slots. I can get the PDR/MDR back by switching shield if I really need need it at cost of 30% regen and 40 mana, but I switched to a5 merc and he tanks like an absolute boss so the lower pdr and mdr is a non issue. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

can't comment on other caster classes yet but so far im pretty happy with sorc + ES.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:08 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
800 mana 375 is aprox 30 per second.

sorcs casting at 3 per second on 8 or 7 frame, you're eating 150 mana a second on fireball. 240 mana a second on ice bolt. At least 180 on charged bolt.

And this is why I can't stand brevans response, that is unsustainable, and his solution is well dnt build fcr. It's like saying to a fucking zeal to use the slowest attack frame so you dont hurt your mana pool. Its fucking nonsensical.

The mana costs of these spells are meant for 3x the mana pools we can get.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:29 pm
Posts: 6
not that i mind, but i get the feeling im being trolled :? maybe not but i'll bite for mutual lulz just in case before I head out.
how are you working out mana recovered per second? base rate is 60 seconds to fill from empty.
800/60 = 13.33 mana recovered per second base
375% = 4.75 x multiplier since a 1.0 multiplier is the base rate every 10% is an extra 0.1 added to the base 1.0 rate
13.33 x 4.75 = 63.3 mana per second. not 30
a free super mana potion every 8 seconds :)

we dont just stand still holding down right click though, or at least not on a mod that is advertised as challenging. every fight that matters has periods of downtime for dodging and recovering hp or chasing/positioning unless you are just straight ES tanking like a champ. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:28 am
Posts: 1109
Location: Vancouver, BC
Mana Management:
  • Travel with a team to save mana. This way ally's effects (Damage, enemy debuff (e.g. SlowMissiles), ally buffs (e.g. Meditation), etc) will help. Mercs count too.
  • Get more mana (Lum runes, Stats in Energy, gear like "Hatred" or PeltaLunata, etc).
  • Use spells efficiently: maneuver so that enemies are bunched up for radius-effect spells (e.g. FireBall) or are lined up for linear-AoE spells (e.g. Lightning). Often a Merc or summon can help wrangle monsters (e.g. monsters bunch together around a focus), but sometimes they're exactly what you don't want (e.g. monsters chasing only you might line up well for linear AoE).
  • Try to find sources (some example Uniques, Sets, and "Runewords" given, but some of these benefit the whole party so anyone could have them) of the following mana-skills: SolarCreeper (Wormskull), Redemption (SoulHarvest), Meditation (Heaven'sBrethren), Warmth (Trang-Oul'sAvatar) & SpellMasteries (Fire, Cold, Ltng, Magic, and Pois all come with a little ManaRegen in additon to letting your spells be more effective; e.g. "Jealousy", Templar'sMight, or BlessedAmulet), FindPotion (now finds Megas in NM and Ultras in Hell; e.g. Atma'sScarab), BattleOrders ("CallToArms").
  • Try to find sources of gear-based mana effects: +%RegenMana, Dmg-to-Mana (only HP lost to PhysDamage count for this, but it's very effective for front-line builds), MP/Kill, MPonStrike or ManaSteal (these two are best for attack skills). +%SpellDmg can effectively reduce the MP cost if you manage to kill mobs with one less casting.
  • Do not level spells before you need to. If you're already struggling for mana, and leveling that skill won't cause it's damage to kill with fewer casts, then you're not improving things.

Diablo2 Mana Regen formula:
  • Vanilla: MaxMP/120 * (100 + %RegenMP)/100
    - EG with 600 MaxMP and 300% RegenMP, D2 characters would regenerate 20MP/sec.
  • HUv1.7: MaxMP/60 * (100 + %RegenMP)/100
    - EG with 600 MaxMP and 300% RegenMP, HUv1.7 characters would regnerate 40MP/sec.


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 Post subject: Re: Mana problems
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:36 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:36 am
Posts: 969
Using the d2 formula, which is 120s for an orb, I assumed it was hardcoded.


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