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 Post subject: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:51 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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I fancy trying out the poison javazon this reset but have never tried it and need some general advice/tactics, but thanks to the reset buffs fancy giving it a go.

I understand just spamming plaque javelins is not the best way to maximise DPS, I take it once th epoision is applied all your doing is extending its duration rather than stacking posions to do more damage. IF this is the case once you have poisoned an enemy do you switch to a different javelin ability or go close combat for a few seconds until the posions wears off. Also do the different poison ability’s stack damage wise?

Also seems that javelins only have 500 throws before they run out, is this a massive inconvenience having to keep going back to town to repair the item and will It make the build annoying after a while.

IS a regular spear a good second weapon to switch to?

And should I pick up the Jab ability?
Is it worth putting any points into the lightning abilitys for poison immunes?

Do I need +skillers or should I being aiming for +damage items and jewels etc? the damage from the poisons is skill based but the damage from the actuall javelin is damage/weapon based.

Thanks for any help/advice


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:13 pm 
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The last PoiZon I made used these skills:
20 PoisJav
20PlagueJav
20LFury
20Decoy

The poison Jav is really string early-game, and isn't overtaken by PlagueJav you get it to about level 10 I think (been over a year). What's critical to know is the way that poison damage works:
  • Only 1 source of poison damage is applied at any time, and it's always the highest damage per second source. So if you party with a high-venom Assasin or PNova Necro, then they'll probably be the only one doing poison damage.
  • The enemy resistance at the time the poison is applied determines the poison damage, so strike when LowerRes or CoShadows.
  • Poison from items is converted to your damage per second, so is rarely noticeable.
  • Poison damage from skills is stacked and lasts for the duration of the longest-duration poison skill. This makes items with Venom oSkill rediculously powerful for PoiZons and PNecros. Cast Venom for it's high dps, and then the monster struck with your PJav (only the monster struck, not the cloud) will suffer additional Venom damage, but over the duration of your skill instead of the 0.5 seconds of Venom. E.G: PJav 600/6s + Venom 100/0.5s = PJav 1800/6s

I found Decoy more useful than Valk (get her anyways) because the Decoy didn't cause counters, didn't run, has a much lower timer, and is extremely durable (perhaps due to fewer counters).

My typical strategy was to to cast Venom via "Pestilence" dagger, cast decoy to lure a mob, cast Cloak of Shadows via "Shadow" dagger and then PJav from afar (targeting the biggest threat). I could then use LFury if I wanted, but I usually just waited for them to die.

This is really strong against most bosses.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Quote:
Only 1 source of poison damage is applied at any time, and it's always the highest damage per second source. So if you party with a high-venom Assasin or PNova Necro, then they'll probably be the only one doing poison damage.



However poison jav will stack with other poisons, including plague javelin. (rabies is an odd one and one of 2 things can happen with it)
if Rabies infects a monster already poison, or poison infects a monster already rabid, one of two things will happen.

Scenario #1: If the poison damage is of a higher bitrate than Rabies, the two sources of poison will exist concurrantly. They will each run at their own listed duration, independent of the other damage, but for as long as both rabies and the poison are active, the damages will stack.

Scenario #2: If the poison damage is of a lower bitrate than Rabies, Rabies will overwrite the alternate source of poison damage.

Blue_myriddn wrote:
lets say your psn dagger does 6000 dmg/sec over 10 seconds. If you buff yourself with a venom attack that does 1700 dmg/sec over .4 seconds your end result is an attack that does 7700 dmg/sec over 10 secods.

The rates add - the duration is overriden with the psn strike duration. Now it is POSSIBLE that the attack will do 7700 dmg/sec over 10.4 seconds. I never bothered to confirm if that was or wasn't true as .4 seconds is a pain to measure.

It gets even better if you add in a single external source of psn - such as blackbogs' 74 dmg/sec over 10 seconds. This will then give you:

(7700 dmg/sec + 74 dmg sec) over (10 sec + 10 sec) = 7774 dmg/sec over 20 seconds.


Blue_Myriddn wrote:
Poison generally works by adding the damage rates and averaging out the duration. So if you have a psn source with a 10 second duration and one with a 2 second duration, when you hit the monster they will only stay green for 6 seconds.

For psn strike & psn jav (necro & amazon skills), their attacks aren't considered a source of poison like other sources of poison. What happens here is that the damage rates are added, but rather than averaging in the duration, the duration is ADDED.

This means that you can use these skills to stretch out your attack duration. So going back to the example above, lets say you have your psn sources with 10 second duration, 2 second duration and you use a psn strike with 10 second duration. Rahter than averaging all 3 to get a 7.3 duration, you end up only averaging the first 2 and then adding the psn strike duration to get a 16 second duration.

This makes sense for the character as you don't want to have to continue hitting the monster over and over, you want to make your duration as long as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:33 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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sounds good thanks for the advice, so i guess it is worth picking up lightning fury to use to attack with when an enemy is poisioned?

Also will i get annoyed real fast at only have a weapon with a stack of 500 and running out all the time?


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:37 pm 
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no, i jad a light javazon and rarely ran out, if you carry a few smith runes with you. they only repair to half a stack but its enough to get you through to the next wp at least. also another + with javazons with gems socketed in javs. repair cost rolls over and it`ll cost you 1 gold to fully repair them, just carry a spare set on switch and some smith runes in cube and your good to go

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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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i am really torn between trying an ice bowazon, or going with my original plan of poison javazon now. I do like the fact with javazon though you get a shield(extra item to add gems to) chance to block etc and it seems less glass cannon like, also my necro friend will not like me to much going ice and shattering all the corpses! CHOICE really is a problem!


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:05 pm 
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both are great. however if your running with a nec, as you say shattering corpses may cause a tiff or two lol.

the beauty of poison is the lack of counters from bosses and as you say a shield so you can have max block and easy max res. also makes your decoy stronger as it will have a shield and block too.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:35 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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didnt realise that about the decoy, nice thinking :), okay i think im sold with the javazon, ill report back later when i either win or fail :P


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:38 pm 
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I know my light javazon was a total brute survivability wise, since you wont be in the fray you may wanna think about getting the dodge/avoid skills. some are against them but for a char that wont take many hits (java/bowa) Im a big fan of them. especialy as the poison javs dont need to be thrown often

Edit: it would be great if you could let us know how she gets on as you progress. I always enjoy reading a chars journey and players preferances etc as they progress

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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:06 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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Ok so I hit level 23 this morning and thought I’d write what ive found so far :D

First impressions of the build so far is that its great and a lot of fun. Possibly because its a lot different to what im used with melee, or bowazon in that instead of dealing damage to individual targets I can run about poisoning groups at a time.
Ive found so far that I have adopted several play styles depending on if I am soloing or grouping up. If solo this build allows for great farming potential and I tend to round up large amounts of mobs and poison them all, but you have to keep moving and kiting the mobs about then they all drop off very quickly – doesn’t seem to be merc friendly though!!. Group play on trash I tend to hover about and poisoning all mobs, then either switching to regular throw or going in for a few jabs close combat

The damage of the build so far is very good, and basically all comes from the poison though, as im finding my actually throw damage is like 10-15% of what the poison is doing so im not to sure how useful critical strike is except maybe bosses, so im thinking +skillers, rather than +damage items to maximise poison. I found the build quite mana intensive to begin with and im still looking for a mana leech ring to help offset this. The 3rd skill in the poison tree(plaque javelin) is pretty much the same as poison javelin except it explodes upon impact making a poison cloud. This is obviously the best out of the 3 skills but also the most mana intensive so at this point Im having to using poison javelin as its like ½ the mana cost of plaque.

Im thinking of putting 1 point into jab for when I poison a target and have to wait for the poison to wear off, an dim also thinking of picking up one of the lightning ability’s now for when I face poison immunes, or just for an alternative attack in between poisoned targets.

One of the advantages of this build is the shield aswell I mentioned earlier, as it allows for a potential of 3-4 more socket slots which are very useful and of course a chance to block damage, making this build less glass cannon.

That’s about it so far, seems a great build so far I hope it can keep going all the way into hell difficulty aswell.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Corley wrote:
my actually throw damage is like 10-15% of what the poison is doing... I found the build quite mana intensive to begin with and im still looking for a mana leech ring to help offset this.
You'll never leach enough mana to offset the cost, you're build is basically a Caster. Caster's usually use mana per kill. Buy a Tir rune and a couple sockets in A2. One Tir rune should be overkill for the minor mana costs you expend per kill.

You might not have encountered this yet, but keep in mind that if you want to solo bosses, then you'll need a point into something like Lightning Bolt (never misses) to keep the boss' healing timer going. Only attacks that cause counters will get the timer started.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:12 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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i did not know this thanks for sharing, im defiantly getting a lightning skill now, and thanks for the leech advice as well i appreciate it.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:52 pm 
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imo

when i made a psn zon
i didnt have time to use lightning skills

id just hit them, run, cast decoy

and repeat

this character is really overpowered with the right gear early game

i forget the damage i did in a4 norm, but i was able to farm each wp, with 1-2 javs..

it was soo easy

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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:27 pm 
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Wtf were you using then?

I'm doing 7,5-8k/6sec psn jav atm in a5 norm, full sigons, zon rings, broken heart with 3 perf emeralds and certainly not overpowered. More like underpowered so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:40 pm 
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At 1.2k/s dps, you must be playing in a large group for that to not appear overpowered. Don't compare yourself to Tooth necros or SWave bears, they max out their damage pretty fast (Teeth should be horribly overpowered around A3 norm, and taper out around A2NM or something).

However, in your defence, Marc's Zon might have had +3 java ammy, +1 skills "Spirit" shield (maybe +2, depending on how long ago this was), +1 boots (forget their name, the lvl 55 ones), "Shadow" dagger (Cloak of Shadows oSkill) on switch or "Pestilence" dagger (Venom oSkill). +1 javs gloves. Surely you'd agree that if you had another +6 skills and about -50% enemy pois res (even breaking immunities), that your build would be overpowered in norm difficulty :)


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:57 pm 
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Quote:
6 skills and about -50% enemy pois res (even breaking immunities)

no ammount of -res on equip can break an immune, you need a lower res, conviction or Cloak of Shadows to break an immunity.

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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:34 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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In act 1-3 I seem to be doing good damage, but hitting act 4 it seems im not doing that much at the moment, I guess all the enemy’s have high resistances or something so I really need some –poison resist gear now and to start finding some +skill items.


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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:41 pm 
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ith shael in a knife will provide you with cloak of shadows, that will boost your kill power, just use it on switch

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 Post subject: Re: Poison javazon advice required
PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:51 am 

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 am
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Im going to try craft a caster pair of gloves to help with my mana problems, and then hopefully free up my Tir sockets, also using Tir runes doesn’t work to well on bosses only trash.
Then im going to craft some holy boots with vigor to allow me to weave around enemy groups easier, and then finally craft up the –psn resist armour I was talking about earlier.

Im also going to craft up a javelin and adds lots of emeralds into them for the -psn resist effect aswell. What would be a good gem to us in the craft?

I also feel like ive wasted the points I put into critical strike back when I first started as the damage from the actual javelin its self is nothing compared to the poison damage now.

So far ive picked up tarn helm, and eye of the etlich and and +1 skill ama ring so ive got +3 skills at the moment helping me out.


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